NLHE Preflop - With which hand to raise more often? 88 or 89s?

[kbinder]

Suppose you're in a live 1/2 or 2/5 game where there is a lot of limping preflop. 3 people limp in front of you, and you're in late position. With which hand are you raising more often: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], or 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]?

Calling here is obviously ok if we know we can count on our opponents to build a pot if we hit big with either hand. If we cannot count on this to happen, we may consider raising so as to build a big pot for when we hit our hand.

As far as comparing the two hands goes, the main question I want to consider is how often I will want to play a big pot once the flop comes. Excluding flops like 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], the only time I'll be willing to play a big pot with 88 is if I flop a set, 11.8% of the time. When I play 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], I'll want to play a big pot if I flop a combo draw, something like 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

Intuition tells me that I will flop a set with 88 more often than I will flop a combo draw with 89s. (This may not be correct). Push aside any business of mixing up your play, and this seems to indicate that I would want to raise more often preflop with 88 than with 89s.

Are there any reasons why it would be better to raise 89s more often preflop?

[Orlando Salazar]

you could also flop a straight, trips, FH, or quads. Other +EV spots also a pair and FD, 2 overs a backdoors stright flush draw and a gutshot, top pair and a OESD.

[kbinder]

Sure, I'd be willing to play a huge pot on the flop with any hand that is stronger than simply a 12-out draw. How often will these occur?

[ginko]

You flop a good made hand or draw around 25% of the time with 89s(if I remember the math correctly). Deciding to raise preflop with marginal hands depends on the game you are playing in.

If you raise preflop and get more than one caller on average, it is better to punish these players by raising with big pocket pairs and big aces, and limp marginal hands like 88 and 89s.

If most people fold to a preflop raise, or you usually get just 1 or maybe 2 callers, you should be raising with both 88 and 89s so that you get action on your big starting hands.

I hope that makes sense. The whole goal of raising preflop with marginal hands is to disguise and get action on your big pairs. If you are playing in a loose game with poor players who dont pay attention, it is better to just wait for good hand before you put money in the pot.

[osoverride]

i usually just read the thread and don't say much but this one sparked my interest. depending on the type of people you have siting in this game i would have different opinion. 89 off or suited can be played effectively if the motive for playing it is correct. ask yourself this, "why would i play this hand, and what do i hope to accomplish by playing it"? if your planing to pick the pot up right then how do you plan on bluffing everyone? you already have limper's in the pot and most likely, strong or weak, at least 1 is going to call if not more. then you have to ask yourself what do i do when the flop comes 3h 4h qd ? are you going to continue betting if you miss? if your going to bluff at a pot you must sell if from the start. i see to affton players starting a bluff and not follow through with it. if your wondering about "JUST" the odds of drawing out then i would have to say that 88s are already better then 89 right, preflop? then putting that into consideration i would rather start with the 88s. your semi bluffing with them and if you dont hit the flop they are easy to get rid of and cheaply at that. also if you hit a set then its smooth sailing from there. i know you know how to play a set. comparing that with a marginal hand like 89 s or off that can make you play further into a pot for more money. i mean think about it you hit 2ed pair. this is going to make you continue in a pot that your most likely going to lose unless you have a good read on your opponents. i hate to continue on with this tread but theres much more to consider. ok so you start with a wired pair of 88s and you want to know what the % is of flopping a set on the flop? 17% compared to the 20 - 24% of flopping the same hand or a better draw. its all really about feal. i would suggest that if you need to ask this question you read DH on hold um vol 3 = great work book. i hope i explained this well.

[osoverride]

would anyone agree with me or not?