Observations from Official Poker Rankings - Page 5

pokerstudAA · #41 07-20-2007, 03:45 PM

It is very possible to make a decent income playing only MTT's. Rizen suggested playing smaller field MTT's to decrease your variance a little and to get more final table/bubble experience.

I play mainly lower limit MTT's on FT and PS. Prob. average buy in is 25-30$. I play with a freakishly large bankroll - prob about 10k between the sites and make regular weekly withdrawls. If you play enough and have a decent ROI you can make a nice earn at these lower levels. Nothing like beating up on the kids who cant fight back.

Stars: PokerstudKK
FT: gamblrannoymous

My suggestion is to play ALOT at the limits you are at, move up slowly, but take a few shots here and there. Nothing like a big score to pad the bankroll and help the move up. Good money management is the key to success. Keep on grinding.

PoineDexter · #42 07-23-2007, 11:00 AM

Here, here. Nice piece of advice. The thing too that struck me was when you mentioned the "one big score". If you can hit this earlier in your online career it sure can help you set yourself up. That's as long as you can stay in your shoes and continue to play at the appropriate level until you gain the requisite experience.

Based on your personal numbers can you comment on what we have been throwing around?

JoeyJoJo Shabadu · #43 07-23-2007, 11:22 AM

So if my ROI is 97% is that good? It says I've finished 10% - 20- 40 - 20 -10 in the groups. Then it says I'm ranked 39000 out of whatever which doesn't seem that damn good!

I've never considered playing poker for a living, only as a hobby. You'll never likely see me playing for 109 bucks even though I piss out more than that out after a Friday or drinking. Since it's a hobby, it being even remotely streessful is not something I want to entertain. But I will add my unlearned opinion.

A reasonable salary is 6 figures, minimum. with variance you're going to need to keep an emergency fund to get by the swings (or when your game changes for the worse imperceptably and you run cold and don't know why). It's not always fun. Online, it can get gruellingly boring, which is dangerous sometimes. This is one of those careers where you can't just tell someone to follow their dream since it could cost them their house! It's akin to opening a business... when you're young you can take chances becuase there's little to lose. When you're older, you cut back on risk since there's more to lose. (This is often reflected in a poker player's play too sometimes I think). That's all I got to spout off about...

PoineDexter · #44 07-23-2007, 11:32 AM

As an aside for pokerstudAA (and others).

We said 100%ROI, ABI $30 and 100 games per month would garner you an income of 36K (making a living). This is factor 1. Assuming the numbers for pokerstudKK over the last 120 days is typical he made 5K per month, played 350 games, ABI $18 and ROI 85% therefore:

game factor 3.5 (350/100)
ROI factor 0.85 (85/100)
ABI factor 0.6 ($18/$30)

Overall factor of 1.785 x 36K = $64,260.00
pokerstudKK is projected to make 60K
Pretty close.

We don't know if our 2hr average per play is correct but if it is this takes 700hrs to accomplish. If you can 4 table your at 175hrs just over an average work week of 161hrs. pokerstudAA can you comment on the number of hours it takes to play through 350 tourneys?

I think maybe 100% ROI may be too high to expect over the long term but it doesn't matter as it is a factor value. We are saying to make 36K you need these factors (ABI, games, ROI). plug in the numbers of what you are doing or capable of doing and you can see what is necessary to make a living (36K) and if it is worth the "risk" as you define it!!

JoeyJoJo Shabadu · #45 07-23-2007, 11:47 AM

By the way, one more thought... online winnings can't be claimed if you're a US citizen (I think). Therefore you have no income... not sure if poker income could count anyway for a bank. Therefore you cannot get a loan or mortgage without laundering it. Therefore you need more cash on hand when you're young. So 36k is not close to enough.

PoineDexter · #46 07-23-2007, 11:47 AM

joeyjojo

The rankings are for the most part meaningless by themselves so are the percentages at the top. You have to look at the meat of the figures to glean any real meaning. If I entered a $1.00 tourney and won ($3 say) I would have an ROI of 300% and who knows what the percent figure at the top would be but it means nothing. However for guy who played 300 touneys then the breakdown means something.

I wasn't really meaning to get into a philosophy discussion with this thread (ie. is poker bad and is poker ruining all these college kids who think they can be pro's). Having said that I agree with a lot of your points! Whatever you feel is "making a living" I think you need at least double that with poker to pay for the risks, lack of medical benefits etc. I also think you need to be able to generate this money in minimum 4/5 the time of a regular job (ie. three day weekends).

Hopefully we will finalize a group of numbers so everyone who thinks they can make a living at this can take a look at what they are currently doing (ABI, games, ROI) and extrapolate where they need to be to "make a living"

BigAlK · #47 07-23-2007, 12:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, one more thought... online winnings can't be claimed if you're a US citizen (I think). Therefore you have no income... not sure if poker income could count anyway for a bank. Therefore you cannot get a loan or mortgage without laundering it. Therefore you need more cash on hand when you're young. So 36k is not close to enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is possibly the most ill-informed and incorrect post I've ever seen. Any problem you have in getting a loan or mortgage are issues that any self-employeed person would potentially have to deal with. Poker isn't the issue.

BigAlK · #48 07-23-2007, 12:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I wasn't really meaning to get into a philosophy discussion with this thread (ie. is poker bad and is poker ruining all these college kids who think they can be pro's). Having said that I agree with a lot of your points! Whatever you feel is "making a living" I think you need at least double that with poker to pay for the risks, lack of medical benefits etc. I also think you need to be able to generate this money in minimum 4/5 the time of a regular job (ie. three day weekends).

[/ QUOTE ]

These points (and Joeyjojo's post that prompted them) are all true. In an earlier post in this thread I'd said that extrapolating my numbers based on playing twice the number of tournaments (what I thought I would do if playing full time) would get me to approximately what I currently make at my day job. This comes a little shy of 6 figures (although not that much). That isn't nearly enough for me to consider playing full time due to the lack of benefits, need for a cushion when you're running bad (which will happen), risk due to variance, etc.

There are a lot factors other than your expected win rate for anyone to consider. Age, family obligations, current income, income needed to maintain lifestyle, tolerance for risk, and many more. I don't remember who said it or where I read it, but for most people the right answer is probably not to play full time until "you can't afford not to." In other words you're making so much that the hours spent at your regular job are costing you a lot compared to what you'd be making if you were playing.

PoineDexter · #49 07-23-2007, 12:21 PM

Philosophy again.

You both have valid points. Income is income but as a self employed individual your bank is likely going to ask for three years of tax returns showing some proof of your earnings etc, etc. If you make 30K then 80K then 25K then 60K they are not going to be pleased with the variance. Poker earnings would not preclude you from getting credit but it's definitely not the same as a traditionally employed person and it's probably not going to be the same as a self employed individual who owns a convenience store, brokerage business, self employed accountant etc.

There may be other threads on tax implications in the forums but I'll bet the IRS doesn't want to make too much of a fuss about poker income because I'm sure they definitely don't want all the poker "losers" claiming these losses on their taxes.

JoeyJoJo Shabadu · #50 07-23-2007, 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
By the way, one more thought... online winnings can't be claimed if you're a US citizen (I think). Therefore you have no income... not sure if poker income could count anyway for a bank. Therefore you cannot get a loan or mortgage without laundering it. Therefore you need more cash on hand when you're young. So 36k is not close to enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is possibly the most ill-informed and incorrect post I've ever seen. Any problem you have in getting a loan or mortgage are issues that any self-employeed person would potentially have to deal with. Poker isn't the issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

By saying it's incorrect and ill informed are you assuming I'm American? ... because that's not a correct assumption hence the "I THINK" in my post.

Self emplyed people also have a hard time getting loans for things they don't claim on their yearly income taxes... you cannot borrow on what you cannot prove exists without existing collateral or a co-signer. Anywhere except the US? Either claim online winnings as winnings and don't list the source, and pay tax, or it doesn't exist.

and thanks for assuming I'm an idiot. And if you don't care about this line of discussion becuase it wasn't the OPs original intent, you can just end it here.