OOP on the turn with a big draw again.

[00Snitch]

Nah, I just don't like leading the flop. You give other players a chance to protect their hands. Plus, you almost certainly never get the chance to put mulitple bets in with an equity edge.

[Big Folder]

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The other reason I don't like betting the flop is because I feel like a tool when I bet the flop and check the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Dont you feel like more of a tool when you c/r the field and then check? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] I see what you are getting at, but isn't it more likely that someone else besides the person to your immediate left raises, allowing you to put in 3-bets preflop with trapped callers?

[00Snitch]

I wasn't really being serious about the feeling like a tool bit. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

I guess its a bit hard to say without knowing something about the other players wheather or not you will get the chance to get more bets in by donking, hoping to 3-bet or by check-raising.

I just feel like more hands will fold to this bet than will bet if check to. I think I'm trying to say, there are more hands that will bet than call a bet.

So obv any decent draw will call a bet, but not necessarily bet themselves (although they might, especially from lp). So in that case it is better for us to bet.

However...

Hands like QJ, maybe AJ and A3, 43 might not call a bet, but will bet if checked to.

Hands like mid-low PPs might not call a bet, but will bet if checked to.

I could be wrong here, its just the feeling I get I suppose.

Obviously, the worst scenario when we bet is if BB has a hand (made or draw) and raises it.

[OziBattler]

snitch, the average 25c/50c player will call with a K, J and much worse hands....cos that is how they roll [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'd expect to be called in at least 2 spot on that flop.

[KitCloudkicker]

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consider raising preflop. you should have an equity edge.

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Whatever edge you have is small and you're in the worst possible position in a multiway pot with a speculative hand that thrives on implied odds. Raising cuts into those and bloats the pot.

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so you dont raise KJs here? KTs? QJs? JTs? these are all speculative hands. they will not win UI. and its not like you have a huge edge with these hands either.

you guys give so much contradictory advice, no wonder noobs get confused. you have a suited broadway, which is a powerful hand in a multiway pot. that doesn't mean you have to CBet any flop that comes you way.

and i dont understand what you mean when you say "bloats the pot..." when you flop a big draw, which is what you want with this hand; you want the pot to be bloated. its not no limit. you arent shooting for pot control. bigger pots are better than smaller pots. if small pots are youre goal then you should limp in with KK on the button after a few people limp before you. at least then people wont draw on you, right?

stop being such a nit. and please, stop saying "raise suited broadways preflop multiway" and then giving the opposite advice the next hand. if you have an edge multiway, and you can play postflop well, then you should exploit your edge.

if you're still learning how to play postflop, then i can understand your preflop limp. however, for experienced players, not raising this is leaving serious money on the table in loose games.

ok im done ranting now.

[img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

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Nah, I just don't like leading the flop. You give other players a chance to protect their hands. Plus, you almost certainly never get the chance to put mulitple bets in with an equity edge.

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double O

i think how you play the hand depends on the type of players you have in the first two spots after you ... if they tends towards the aggressive side I would aggree with you that check raising is the route to go.

[00Snitch]

PB, no doubt. I just hate saying "it depends" [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. I think having an agro on your left makes it a definate check.

AB, They way I see it is:

They may call a bet with those hands, but never raise them. This is cool, you get a bet from them. However, I also think they will bet these hands if you check to them which is even cooler because then you get two bets from them and anyone you can trap.

If it doesnt get bet til last spot, well you can call and those hands will still call a bet after you. If it gets checked through, then you'll just have to take your medicine, but I can't see that happening all that often.

Kit, I don't raise any of those hands from the SB with 3 limpers.

Edit: cause it sounded like I was contradicting myself [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[Fadook]

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so you dont raise KJs here? KTs? QJs? JTs? these are all speculative hands. they will not win UI. and its not like you have a huge edge with these hands either.

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I don't raise any of those in this position.

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you guys give so much contradictory advice, no wonder noobs get confused.

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Well, poker's like that. C'mon Kit, I think you know enough to understand that this is a very situational game with many close spots in which there's a fine line between the correct and incorrect decision. In this particular case, I don't think it's all that close though. For one thing, you're in bad position.

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and i dont understand what you mean when you say "bloats the pot..." when you flop a big draw, which is what you want with this hand; you want the pot to be bloated. its not no limit. you arent shooting for pot control. bigger pots are better than smaller pots. if small pots are youre goal then you should limp in with KK on the button after a few people limp before you. at least then people wont draw on you, right?

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And what happens when you don't pick up a draw but hit a pair? You're not playing QTs entirely for straight and flush potential. If you hit a pair in this hand,it's decent but vulnerable and could use protection, which is easier to do when the pot is smaller. And comparing with KK is just silly. KK is a made hand, the second best hand you can have, and has a big equity edge preflop, and is quite likely to win UI. Obviously you'd be giving up loads of value if you limped with it. That isn't true for QTs.



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and please, stop saying "raise suited broadways preflop multiway" and then giving the opposite advice the next hand. if you have an edge multiway, and you can play postflop well, then you should exploit your edge.

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Please point me to all those posts which say you should raise JTs, QTs, and similar hands from the SB when there are already 3 limpers.

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if you're still learning how to play postflop, then i can understand your preflop limp. however, for experienced players, not raising this is leaving serious money on the table in loose games.

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Maybe you didn't notice, but there were a number of players who are far more experienced than me all saying the preflop complete is fine.

[johno]

I like a flop bet. There's always a risk that it will get checked through. If someone bets, it's likely to be late position, making a C/R difficult. You don't mind getting raised as this is more likely to trap people for two bets.

More importantly, it disguises your draw. If you check/call the flop, then bet out after your draw completes, most players will smell a rat. However, if you bet out on the flop, a lot of players will give you less credit for the flush or straight if it hits on the turn.

Is there also 'pot equity effect' on later streets? In bigger pot, you may get more callers after your draw comes in, who are calling dead?

[Xhad]

I'm ok with OP's complete but I would always raise QJs and think completing KJs is a serious mistake without some kind of read.