2NL - Straight turns into weak flush on river

[BozMan82]

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $0.01/$0.02 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $0.68
Hero (BB): $2.24
UTG: $4.37
UTG+1: $2.93
MP1: $1.84
MP2: $1.22
MP3: $1.72
CO: $1.46
BTN: $0.61

Preflop: Hero is dealt 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9 Players)
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, CO calls $0.02, BTN folds, SB calls $0.01, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.08) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $0.05</font>, MP1 calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, SB calls $0.05

Turn: ($0.28) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $0.14</font>, MP1 calls $0.14, CO folds, SB calls $0.14

River: ($0.70) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, Hero???

Reads: None for this hand, unfortunately. I was sitting out for a while and just got back a few hands ago.

I assume pre-flop is standard with this junk hand. On the flop, I led out as a semi-bluff after flopping an OESD and backdoor FD. I wanted to take it down right there, but everybody called instead. (Bet more?)

Hit the straight on the turn, but that put a 3-flush on the board and gave me a weak FD. I figured at least one of the players that called me on the flop was on a flush draw. Here I was pretty confused on the best line to take being OOP and having 3 opponents. I ended up settling on betting 1/2 the pot. What would be a better alternative?

River was a terrible card for me, IMO. I now have the 4th best flush. What would be the best way to extract value/avoid paying off?

[Bostik]

I would check behind and fold to a bet, if rather grudgingly. After such an ugly river, what hands would call that you beat? More to the point, if you bet, you have two callers to worry about. Note that SB has been calling down all the way and obviously likes his hand.

If MP1 called the turn with a flush draw, he was making a bad call (getting 3:1, when the odds of hitting the flush are roughly 4:1). At that point, SB is almost getting the odds to call, so a flush draw is very likely. I may be a mean bastard, but I prefer to punish the other players for making the bad plays instead of rewarding them. Let them make bad plays and donate their money, but when they do hit, I simply deny them their implied odds.

I would expect at least one of the two to be here with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or better, in which case you would need to effectively bluff both players out. I also believe MP1 bets if you check, and SB might just call down once more. Not sure if calling at that point is +EV in the long run.

[unseen]

Preflop is standard.

Flop I tend to c/f here more often than to bet, because without better reads I see virtually zero folding equity at these tables and this is needed at least a bit to semibluff, is it? As played it's ok for me.

Turn is a clear c/f. Someone made his flush and you are dead. Even if you make your flush on the river, you are beaten by the higher flush. If it was just the SB I might go on with the hand an bet the pot here to push on the river, but against this field I let it go.

River. Again c/f. If you were dead on the turn you are even more here. Against just the SB I shove, but with MP1 still in I chosse the more passive variant.

[Gipper]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop is standard.

Flop I tend to c/f here more often than to bet, because without better reads I see virtually zero folding equity at these tables and this is needed at least a bit to semibluff, is it? As played it's ok for me.

Turn is a clear c/f. Someone made his flush and you are dead. Even if you make your flush on the river, you are beaten by the higher flush. If it was just the SB I might go on with the hand an bet the pot here to push on the river, but against this field I let it go.

River. Again c/f. If you were dead on the turn you are even more here. Against just the SB I shove, but with MP1 still in I chosse the more passive variant.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know we are only using one card from our hand, but are you really advocating check/fold on the flop with an oesd? I know it depends on the odds we are getting, but I don't see this as a very good default way to play draws. Would you please further expand on your reasoning?

[unseen]

[ QUOTE ]

I know we are only using one card from our hand, but are you really advocating check/fold on the flop with an oesd?

[/ QUOTE ]

On a second though I should have taken c/c into account too. I just did not thought there much myself, sorry. But here it depends very much on the bet size and what SB does.

To bet myself I need at least a bit of folding equity and this is rarely the case at 2NL on such a board.

[ QUOTE ]
I know it depends on the odds we are getting, but I don't see this as a very good default way to play draws.

[/ QUOTE ]

Talking about odds at all I think there are better people than me to do this mathematically. If we give one of the villains the AKQJ flush draw we must discount 2 of our outs This means we would just be like ~7:1 to make our str8 without the flush coming in compared to ~4:1 of hitting the flush. This is not a very nice spot to be in (especially OOP), if you ask me.

But my main reason here is the lack of information. We have no reads and the preflop action does not give away that much either. There are better spots to play a draw with a bit of aggression.

Of course it cannot be the default play for draws. It is my play of this draw situation against unknown people at 2NL.
(even there I might not do it all the time the same way [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img])

Edit: Last but not least, please take my writing with a grain of salt as I am a beginner and just try to get used to commenting other people hands more in order to develop my own game. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[BozMan82]

Thanks all for the advice.

I'm starting to think it would've been better to just check the flop. In addition to the aforementioned loose calling of the typical 2NL players, checking would control the size of the pot better and make the hand easier to get away from if ugly cards come on later streets.

I can find much better spots to semi-bluff than this (with reads, with position, etc.)