Too much action??

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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can we get a ruling from stox himself on this hand (or this scenario flopping top pair or two pair vs a limper HU, what is the most EV flop line?) by any chance?

im sick of listening to circular arguements, then when anyone counters something or point out a flaw or inconsistency in ur logic all the sudden u chop it up to simply a matter of opinion when two seconds before u were vehemently stating cr'ing was terrible and harshly bashing on posters for their replies (opinions) to a thread.

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Ive watched enough stox videos to know exactly what stox would do in this spot. He is checking the flop in this spot 100% of the time. Why? Becuz stox likes money.

Gvasa doesnt understand that betting is only one way to extract value. Using the tool kit metaphor, a strong poker player has many value extracting strategies at his disposal. There is a time when betting will make the most money and a time when checking will make the most money with this hand. In this specific instance checking is the value extracting tool we should deploy.

jstill I understand your frustration with these no proof arguments. As you may well know, I am a major culprit of this type of writing. It has always been my writing style to say what I think and put the burden of proof on other posters/lurkers. Put another way, I will gladly point anyone in the right direction but Im not gonna walk hand in hand with them down the road of poker enlightenment.

I will say once again that with no strong reads to the contrary, betting this flop with this hand is unequivocally wrong and I leave up to other readers/posters to figure out why. Ive already done that work myself, I dont have the patience or the time to do it again for others.

[Carmine]

Hey Guys sorry i haven't responded back to this post sooner. Was in AC all day. Glad to see my post provided some entertainment for the forum.

I haven't read every post in depth as I just got in and need to spent some time with the wife. Just as in Poker balance is the key.

Obviously I agree that checking the flop is optimal or I wouldn't have done it. What I don't necessarily agree with is C/R the flop if thats what is being recommended here. I play many a flop fast but I feel in this case my hand is so strong against 34/11 UTG limper as opposed to a 34/4 super passive player, for example, that will limp many an Ace UTG.

If I C/R the flop I think this player will dump many a hand including complete air which makes up a large part of his range.

Please elaborate on the recommendation to C/R the flop here if it hasn't been done yet. If it has then just ignore this request and I'll get to tomorrow.

[yourface]

he's going to be giving up a lot on the turn with his bluffs but may make an ego/"metagame" call on the flop ("can't let this guy think he can push me around", or "can't let him think that I was on a total bluff"). he could also take free cards with live draws. if he has a strong 2nd best hand waiting until the turn will be more likely to freeze him up and kill your action as it represents more strength than a flop c/r

[sqvirrel]

Out of curiosity why is everyone so worried about what stoxx would do? There probably isn't an absolute right or wrong way to play this, and stoxx isn't the only dude who's ever thought about poker.

I will say that if you are check-raising your TP+ hands 100% and betting your more mediocre holdings you are allowing your opponents to play perfectly. I tend to play nearly every flop fast so my opponents won't have a clue what I hold. Sometimes they fold to my monsters. Sobeit, you wouldn't have won much more by checkraising. Often enough your opponents won't give you credit for the hand that you have and give you tremendous action.

I'm not saying that style is correct for everyone, nor am I claiming that I never checkraise flops, I do. But claiming that it is never right to lead this flop is clearly wrong, and calling to authority merely shows an inability to reason for yourselves.

[boc4life]

GVasa is super-wrong all through this thread. Pretty clear that he plays a style that attempts to limit the times he gets sucked out on, and doesn't focus on making as much money as possible.

I don't know what limits or what sites he plays on, but from his tone and logic in this thread, I am pretty sure he'd get eaten alive in the games I regularly play (Which are not big games)

[TheHip41]

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I suggest that ILP and everyone else take time to read page 3 in Stox book. Valuebetting is far more important than inducing bluffs at very low limits. Thats my final word in this thread [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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here is the point you are missing.

when he has a hand like A-x, and will call a bet on every street, your idea of betting the flop for value works, you get 2.5bb. well done.

when he has no pair, no draw, he folds, net = 0bb, good job

when he has middle pair, he will probably call down, same with PP that don't improve, net = 3bb


If he has A-x, and you check the flop, he will bet, you c/r, he calls down, net = 3bb

if he has air, you check, he bets, you c/r, he folds, net = 0.5bb

If he has middle pair, you check, he bets, you c/r, he calls down, net = 3bb

You check the flop, he checks his air. He turns a pair of J.

You bet turn and river, get called, net =2bb, and if you bet the flop and he folds j7o, net = 0


All the hands you want to "get value from" are going to bet the flop near 100% of the time, then you just c/r that hand, and bet every street.

If he checks behind, he was probably just going to fold to the flop bet.

I'm sorry if this line is just over your head, and that's ok. I remember the first time in Small Stakes where I saw a guy raise Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] on a 9x8x3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] board and checking the turn, and I was like, wtf is he doing???

I have a friend like you who plays at Motor City, and he just assumes he knows what is best in all spots, and never alters his game in a positive way.

Just trust me, and the many good posters here when they tell you, betting this flop is not only a mistake, it's a huge leak.

Because at 5-10 6max, they aren't going to peel that flop with 44, or K8s, but they sure will bet that flop when checked to.

Also, on checking the flop, and your opponent checks, if the turn is a 6, and you check, and your opponent has like 76s, he will bet the turn, you will c/r, and I promise you, he will call down.

Getting that extra value from all those hands taht will simply fold to your flop bet is very important.

On the flip side, betting this flop with nothing isn't that bad of a play, because you are going to win this pot pretty much all the time.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
can we get a ruling from stox himself on this hand (or this scenario flopping top pair or two pair vs a limper HU, what is the most EV flop line?) by any chance?

im sick of listening to circular arguements, then when anyone counters something or point out a flaw or inconsistency in ur logic all the sudden u chop it up to simply a matter of opinion when two seconds before u were vehemently stating cr'ing was terrible and harshly bashing on posters for their replies (opinions) to a thread.

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who the **** needs stox. I am telling you right now checking here is the right move, and it's not close. Honestly, Stox doesn't do anything that ILP, or I, or Miles, doesn't do, he just works alot harder, and played more hands, and worked his ass off to get up to the higher levels.

[milesdyson]

flop: check > bet and it's super obvious. whether to c/c or c/r is debatable, whether to check or bet is not at all.

i c/c a single pair of aces here and don't really have a set play for two pair.

turn/river action is inconsistent against a normal hand range. you dont pull that much farther ahead of his betting range on that ace. i dont know what to do there - maybe bet/call the river...

[Carmine]

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turn/river action is inconsistent against a normal hand range. you dont pull that much farther ahead of his betting range on that ace. i dont know what to do there - maybe bet/call the river...

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Miles I agree with this statement. I felt like I went from nit on the turn to lag on the river. Intuitively I felt like the river didn't change things much. Then a thought about combinations for a sec. I'm behind 19 combos on the turn but only 6 on the river. I added that to the fact that at these limits any Ax in that spot is a monster to most these players(especially the weekend crew). Hence I made the decision to cap

Reviewing the hand I went from thinking that I should have capped the turn because of the flush draw emerging. Villain could both be semi-bluffing or think I was semi-bluffing. I think the fact that I underplayed the flop makes both these statements more likely. Also if a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] hits the river it's gonna slow me down some.

On the other hand. Mathematical combinations tell me that I played the turn/river correctly. Less $$ when behind more when ahead.

I couldn't really decide what was optimal. So I left it up to you guys.