Limit Holdem, what to do?

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
It's not really fair to compair online hands to Sklansky's groupings (even though personally I have never been a big fan of the exact ranking order either).

In Sklansky games most pots were multiway where hands like KQs flourish.

Online most pots are headsup or three handed where high card strength becomes more important so AKo does very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Sklansky says as much. He says that these are revised rankings to reflect the modern blind structure which encourages more multi-way pots.

But what the poster is asking for is unrealistic anyway. Hand values change based on the type of game we are in. The best advice for him would be to look at the pre-flop suggestions in Miller's Small Stakes Holdem book. He has one set for games that average 3 to 5 players per flop, and another for looser games that average 6 or more players. You have to decide what type of game you are in and use the appropriate range of hands.

If you are in a tougher game that has fewer players per flop and more pre-flop raising then you should not play drawing hands like small pocket pairs and suited connectors unless a couple of people have limped in before you. But in games where you know there will be lots of players seeing every flop, even when it is raised, a great many more hands become playable.

[malicor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not really fair to compair online hands to Sklansky's groupings (even though personally I have never been a big fan of the exact ranking order either).

In Sklansky games most pots were multiway where hands like KQs flourish.

Online most pots are headsup or three handed where high card strength becomes more important so AKo does very well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Sklansky says as much. He says that these are revised rankings to reflect the modern blind structure which encourages more multi-way pots.

But what the poster is asking for is unrealistic anyway. Hand values change based on the type of game we are in. The best advice for him would be to look at the pre-flop suggestions in Miller's Small Stakes Holdem book. He has one set for games that average 3 to 5 players per flop, and another for looser games that average 6 or more players. You have to decide what type of game you are in and use the appropriate range of hands.

If you are in a tougher game that has fewer players per flop and more pre-flop raising then you should not play drawing hands like small pocket pairs and suited connectors unless a couple of people have limped in before you. But in games where you know there will be lots of players seeing every flop, even when it is raised, a great many more hands become playable.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not necessarily unrealistic if you take in information about the players betting-behavior such as vpip and therewith calculate the estimated number of players you will have on average in a pot ?

[imlosing]

I am a NL player. I used to frequent 1/2nl and 2/4nl on Doyles. I will try my best to help ya here.

Raising hands. AA, KK, QQ, AK(S,OS) (raising with these hands does 2 things. It protects the hand and allows the Hero a strict guidline of Solid UTG hands to be played.

Calling hands. I like to call with medium pairs 55 to JJ. These hands dont do so well UTG if you raise with them and 'thin' the field. These are all Multiway hands that do much better with sets.

Folding hands. AQ/AJ/A10, 2-5's And the KJs QKs - I fold these hands because in 10 handed games there terrible value. Occasionally that AQ will be the best hand, but you have a whole field behind you. If the best your going in the hand is with the weak end of the flip avoid it. the QK's KJ's usually get out-kicked by AQorAJ in later positions.

Now the 89s 910s J10s type hands are hands I in NL will play with a raise from almost any position. But in limit its counterproductive. In NL I'll play them to mix up my play. Limit your best playing these on the button, I think just about every limit player will agree to that (if the pot justifies it)

If want anymore help, Im just starting to use my 2+2again after a few months of not being active I would love to help.

[Niediam]

[ QUOTE ]
I am a NL player. I used to frequent 1/2nl and 2/4nl on Doyles. I will try my best to help ya here.

Raising hands. AA, KK, QQ, AK(S,OS) (raising with these hands does 2 things. It protects the hand and allows the Hero a strict guidline of Solid UTG hands to be played.

Calling hands. I like to call with medium pairs 55 to JJ. These hands dont do so well UTG if you raise with them and 'thin' the field. These are all Multiway hands that do much better with sets.

Folding hands. AQ/AJ/A10, 2-5's And the KJs QKs - I fold these hands because in 10 handed games there terrible value. Occasionally that AQ will be the best hand, but you have a whole field behind you. If the best your going in the hand is with the weak end of the flip avoid it. the QK's KJ's usually get out-kicked by AQorAJ in later positions.

Now the 89s 910s J10s type hands are hands I in NL will play with a raise from almost any position. But in limit its counterproductive. In NL I'll play them to mix up my play. Limit your best playing these on the button, I think just about every limit player will agree to that (if the pot justifies it)

If want anymore help, Im just starting to use my 2+2again after a few months of not being active I would love to help.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to sound too mean but most of your advice here is very poor.

[Flip-Flop]

I strongly agree with the statement that there is no magic formula and I believe there never will be because of the nature of the game.

If there was such a formula.... bots would have been owning online poker already...and online poker would have been dead because of it by now.

I find it very amusing when math-geeks talk about "solving" poker.
It`s like hearing alchemist`s dreams of turning iron into gold. [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

[6471849653]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it very amusing when math-geeks talk about "solving" poker.
It`s like hearing alchemist`s dreams of turning iron into gold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had to stop playing limit holdem because it's already solved. My next attention is at nl-holdem and I am worried it will be solved also, too soon (what a waste of effort again).

I could have picked e.g. PLO but I don't see it any differently (than a combination of limit and no-limit holdem as far as how it plays). About the "only" game online is nl-holdem - shorthanded, that will soon be more or less solved too.

What comes to making money with the bots, it's putting them to play not too many hours at many places at low enough levels (so they can beat them) and not make any stupid mistakes like make them play too many tables and too fast (in the future it gets still more complicated from that - see how the bots are figured out on chess sites, and how they can't be figured out). Compare that to the ABC-player at good games; he beats them easily. Finally, that's soo, the bots will play at least that well. The house bots could even lose some and still make a profit but it's not easy for the house to make any use of them as they would need to more or less start tables and it's easy to figure out then if they are humans or not, and when the table fills more they are not needed; the only use of them would be to make extra money in fuller games (by cheating).

[malicor]

just some more math i did [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

first number: the 'absolute' hand value, setting AA to 1.000 and comparing all others to AAs strength.

second number: percentage of win against 9 randomly distributed hands
third number: percentage of win headsup against 1 random hand
hand strength number: normed sum of both other numbers, giving the 'vs9'-number higher weight (13/2)

why 13/2 ? oh, i just experimented some, and this list looks quite a lot like 'bout what i read how it 'should' be [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] but it's not mathematically based on anything [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

AA 1.000 29.7 85.2
KK 0.870 24.6 82.4
QQ 0.766 20.5 79.9
AKs 0.705 19.9 67.0
JJ 0.687 17.5 77.5
AQs 0.670 18.5 66.2
KQs 0.648 18.0 63.4
AJs 0.643 17.5 65.4
TT 0.626 15.3 75.0
KJs 0.622 17.0 62.6
ATs 0.622 16.7 64.6
AKo 0.613 16.2 65.3
QJs 0.606 16.7 60.3
KTs 0.602 16.3 61.8
QTs 0.589 16.1 59.5
JTs 0.582 16.1 57.5
99 0.579 13.7 72.1
AQo 0.572 14.6 64.4
A9s 0.569 14.7 62.8
KQo 0.552 14.2 61.5

complete list is at http://www.malicor.com/poker.sorted....3_topdown.html

comments please [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[qpw]

[ QUOTE ]
I had to stop playing limit holdem because it's already solved.

[/ QUOTE ]

News to me.

Do you have a link for that?