1/2 bvb bottom pair

[zalazane]

Villain seems tag or lag after ~20 hands. Capable of folding.

sb open limps, hero raises w/A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Flop Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Check, bet, call.

turn K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Sb checks, hero ???

Value bet? Bet to protect? b/f or b/c? check behind and call/check river? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[gehrig]

chk then call river vb river if checked to

the pot is tiny u mostly just wanna collect bluffs and avoid putting in too many bets drawing bad

[Gurravasa]

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chk then call river vb river if checked to

the pot is tiny u mostly just wanna collect bluffs and avoid putting in too many bets drawing bad

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[sqvirrel]

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chk then call river vb river if checked to

the pot is tiny u mostly just wanna collect bluffs and avoid putting in too many bets drawing bad

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are crazy. Easy, easy b/f. If ahead, this hand is way too vulnerable to give free cards. If the flush gets there on the river then easy fold. Otherwise check behind or call single bet.

[Gurravasa]

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chk then call river vb river if checked to

the pot is tiny u mostly just wanna collect bluffs and avoid putting in too many bets drawing bad

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You guys are crazy. Easy, easy b/f. If ahead, this hand is way too vulnerable to give free cards. If the flush gets there on the river then easy fold. Otherwise check behind or call single bet.

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You can't trust a turn c/r from a agressive player. It could be a flush or straightdraw. If you bet/fold you cold fold the best hand for the same amount you can take this to SD with. Also you miss the opportunity to catch a 3 or A on river and you don't give the aggressive player a chance to bluff.

[Oink]

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chk then call river vb river if checked to

the pot is tiny u mostly just wanna collect bluffs and avoid putting in too many bets drawing bad

[/ QUOTE ]

You guys are crazy. Easy, easy b/f. If ahead, this hand is way too vulnerable to give free cards. If the flush gets there on the river then easy fold. Otherwise check behind or call single bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't trust a turn c/r from a agressive player. It could be a flush or straightdraw. If you bet/fold you cold fold the best hand for the same amount you can take this to SD with. Also you miss the opportunity to catch a 3 or A on river and you don't give the aggressive player a chance to bluff.

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Agree. Bet/folding is not good if not actualy terrible against a LAG/TAG

[sqvirrel]

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You can't trust a turn c/r from a agressive player. It could be a flush or straightdraw. If you bet/fold you cold fold the best hand for the same amount you can take this to SD with. Also you miss the opportunity to catch a 3 or A on river and you don't give the aggressive player a chance to bluff.

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That logic is fine WAWB but this aint WAWB. Aggressive doesn't mean stupid and sometimes you are better off risking getting bluffed off a better hand than giving away free cards. You have to balance risks and in this spot, if ahead hero is barely ahead and needs to charge any draws. The odds that villain is going to checkraise a draw or bluff are much lower than the odds that villain outdraws hero.

[bobhalford]

Our villain probably has many outs to beat us. But if his card doesn't come on the river, he will likely bluff after you check behind on the turn. So I vote to check behind and call a river bet. Sometimes you are drawing to 5 outs on the turn and occasionally you improve on the river. Also, villain will fold to your turn bet a lot, which prevents hero from collecting an extra bet on the river when villain bluffs at the pot.

It feels weird to be giving a free card here but I think it's appropriate. There are also times when you get check-raised on the turn as a semibluff or bluff. By checking behind, you avoid folding the current best hand (or one that can improve to the best hand on the river, say if villain holds a K).

I think this play may be referred to in Stox's book as the "value check" but I'm not positive.

[Gurravasa]

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The odds that villain is going to checkraise a draw or bluff are much lower than the odds that villain outdraws hero.

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How can you state this when the only info we have is that villain is TAG or LAG and c/r with a strong draw is a very common move for those players?

[sqvirrel]

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How can you state this when the only info we have is that villain is TAG or LAG and c/r with a strong draw is a very common move for those players?

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It may be a very common move at 1/2 limit but it is a fairly uncommon move in the games I play. I am stating this based on my experience.

There are a lot of erroneous assumptions in this thread. For one, that villain has a strong draw. The odds are that villain has absolutely nothing and took a card off because he thinks hero has nothing too. The odds are that villain does not have a straight draw because he would have had to draw to it. So for some reason we are certain not only that villain has a "strong draw" but is fearlessly waiting to checkraise hero, with the sure knowledge that hero is itching to three-bet if he holds a queen, and also with the sure knowledge that hero is likely to check behind on the turn if he holds nothing. If villain has a flush draw then he would be much more likely to have led or checkraised the flop than to wait for the turn.

My estimate is that villain has nothing far more often than he has a draw that he is desperately hoping to checkraise.

The only way that checking behind on the turn can be correct is if hero is sure that villain will bluff the river. Someone in this thread wrote that villain will "probably" bluff. Once again, in my experience that simply isn't true. Villain might bluff, but when villain bets the river he is winning much more than half the time. Regardless, hero doesn't have any kind of read on villain other than that villain isn't terribly passive. Certainly not enough of a read to know that villain will "probably" bluff the river.