$500 live mtt hand help

[monkeyman]

500 dollar buy in, 110 started, about 35 left. starting stack was 5000. i have around 30k in chips, blinds are 300-600 with an ante of 50.

i have 88 in late position, i raise to 1500 (pretty standard raise at this stage for this tourny). sb and bb both call, as does one limper.

flop comes k [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

checked to me, i bet out 5k, sb folds, bb calls, limper folds.

turn is A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

bb checks. what should i do?

with about 16.5k in the pot, i figure my options are

1. make a small bet to see if he has made the straight. the problem i see with this is if i show too much weakness, it opens it up for him to raise me on a bluff/semi bluff.

2. make a large bet to shut out any draws, knowing that if he has me beat i will be committing most of my stack to this hand.

3. check.

i have the bb covered by about 3k, and i don't have much of a read on him as i just got moved to the table about 8 hands before this.

i decide to check.

river is q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] , bb leads out all in. i fold.

thoughts?

[woodguy]

[ QUOTE ]

1. make a small bet to see if he has made the straight. the problem i see with this is if i show too much weakness, it opens it up for him to raise me on a bluff/semi bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would involve folding, which is pretty much never on the turn. You have to put him exactly on QJ, and that's just impossible....and for the miniscule amount of times he has QJ you have redraws.

Bet the turn, try to get it all in. He has about 20K left, pot is 16K, I like either a jam or 10K......like the jam more I think.

[kniper]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

1. make a small bet to see if he has made the straight. the problem i see with this is if i show too much weakness, it opens it up for him to raise me on a bluff/semi bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would involve folding, which is pretty much never on the turn. You have to put him exactly on QJ, and that's just impossible....and for the miniscule amount of times he has QJ you have redraws.

Bet the turn, try to get it all in. He has about 20K left, pot is 16K, I like either a jam or 10K......like the jam more I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

yup

no reason to make small bet on the turn. make a standard bet or push. AT KT AK all call this. QJ is the only situation this sucks

as played fold river

[TFGoose]

You can't check that turn. It's very likely you still have the best hand right now. Villain could have called you with many other hands on the flop besides QJ, but the river could potentially bring a slew of cards that you don't want to see (and in fact, did). Even if he did make a straight there, you still have 10 outs on the river anyway. I make a healthy bet here, or even consider pushing giving the stacks involved and size of the pot. But you absolutely can't check if you like money.

--TFGoose

[kniper]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't check that turn. It's very likely you still have the best hand right now. Villain could have called you with many other hands on the flop besides QJ, but the river could potentially bring a slew of cards that you don't want to see (and in fact, did). Even if he did make a straight there, you still have 10 outs on the river anyway. I make a healthy bet here, or even consider pushing giving the stacks involved and size of the pot. But you absolutely can't check if you like money.

--TFGoose

[/ QUOTE ]

obv he doesnt like money, ldo

[wulfpacker21]

you would prob. get better input putting it in the High Stakes MTT

[Cornell Fiji]

This is terrible.

There is an illness that afflicts many tournament players, especially live players called: monstruos debajo de la cama. It is a very serious affliction and can cause a serious drain on your winrate.

You need to put your opponent on a RANGE of hands, what do you think are all of the possible hands that he calls preflop and calls on the flop with? Looking at this quickly I think that he could have AK/AQ/KQ/KJ/K9/JT/J9/JQ/AT/TT/T9/T8/89/78/A8 (I might have missed a few hands but you get the point.) Now on the turn you chose to pick the one hand of his huge range that beats you. That means that you are seeing monsters under the bed and if you think this way you will not be a long run winning player.

What you should be thinking when the turn falls is: What hands in his range will he pay off a bet with? What hands will he fold that might pay off a bet on the river? What hands will he fold that might bluff the river?

In this case, once the ace hits, he is going to fold a lot of hands like 9T/89 etc. He will probably pay off one more bet with KQ/KJ and he will probably shove with AT/A8/AK/KT/K8/QJ. Since he is folding his bad hands anyway you need to maximize value against his remaining range.

Bet the turn with the intention of getting all of the money in. As played you are probably correct in calling the river.

[MJBuddy]

Few problems I see here:

Whose the limper? According to the way your post reads, the limper acted before you. If that's the case your raise is horrible and you need to raise correctly; raise to isolate at least a pot sized raise. I typically make mine 2x pot because it clarifies the hands and I can still get a caller a strong amount of the time, but at the same time my hand intimidates more as well as the large pot and aggression post-flop works really well. Anyway, next issue:

Because of the bad raise, you've priced in limping hands effectively. Fiji's range appears about right - you messed up by playing a raised pot and getting 0 information out of your raise. With PP you need to gather as much information as possible pre-flop. Hitting the set is not pure payday; you need the info to extract value.

The bright side, and the downside, to your lack of information is that you're crushing the range of hands that make two pair, top pair, etc. but losing to the few that make straights.

Regardless, you can't fold this river as a result of the huge range that fits the action that you're beating.

Bet the turn for all that is holy, you're letting so many draws catch up for free.

[monkeyman]

thanks for the comments. i didn't post how i actually played the hand, i posted how i could have played the hand differently. after leaving the tounament, i was questioning myself on whether i should have played it this way.

how it really went down was i bet out 8k on the turn, he raised all in showing qj, and the river didn't save me.