Big Stacked AKs

[SonofDjugashvili]

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But he will also check/fold some underpairs to a J or Q turn.

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So you're saying you'll check the flop and then bet a J/Q non-club turn?

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Absolutely. I already stated my prefered line is to check the flop and shove the turn or call his turn shove. Either way, I know in advance that all of the $ is going in by the turn.

Although I may check a turn club or A, but then it doesn't really matter.

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BUT if you are calling the turn shove, you are putting in your money as a big dog (to any pair +). On the one hand, you do pick off more bluffs on the turn, but you only leave yourself drawing to 1 card if the turn bricks. I guess what I am trying to get my head around is this dilemma:

is it better to shove flop and get to see all the cards with our huge drawing hand OR do what you suggest (check & call/shove turn) OR check flop and fold turn to a shove if it bricks

[weimoxer]

We are assuming a bunch about a player that is new to the table as far as aggression and ranges. When is it bad to pick up and add 30-35% to your stack on an AK flush draw on a pot this size with no showdown?? I get what your trying to do sherm, but we are drawing to the nuts with a nice hand, we dont have them yet. With the pot this size, you push in hopes of getting some of the hands that may call/fold to you from an unkown in either the flop or the turn situation, I think the ranges can go either way calling flop or pushing ur turn. With no reads on the player you can't really say either way.

[Sherman]

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But he will also check/fold some underpairs to a J or Q turn.

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So you're saying you'll check the flop and then bet a J/Q non-club turn?

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Absolutely. I already stated my prefered line is to check the flop and shove the turn or call his turn shove. Either way, I know in advance that all of the $ is going in by the turn.

Although I may check a turn club or A, but then it doesn't really matter.

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BUT if you are calling the turn shove, you are putting in your money as a big dog (to any pair +). On the one hand, you do pick off more bluffs on the turn, but you only leave yourself drawing to 1 card if the turn bricks. I guess what I am trying to get my head around is this dilemma:

is it better to shove flop and get to see all the cards with our huge drawing hand OR do what you suggest (check & call/shove turn) OR check flop and fold turn to a shove if it bricks

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How will we be drawing to 1 card? I already did the math to demonstrate that so long as we are committed to the pot on the flop no matter what the turn is, and that villain will bluff the turn with any frequency whatsoever, we are +EV to check the flop and call/shove any turn. Specifically, it is the +EV of shoving the flop plus extra depending on how much he bluffs.

[Sherman]

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I get what your trying to do sherm

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Do you?

Edit: To add, no offense intended.

[weimoxer]

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I get what your trying to do sherm

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Do you?

Edit: To add, no offense intended.

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Your trying to get a player to make a mistake with a hand that normally folds to us to bluff at us that we are way ahead of.

You also are assuming about a player we have no reads on. He could very well push into us with say..

The nuts, AA, KK, any PP or a variety of hands played badly either way, since we have no reads on this paticular player. You should start with the ranges hes calling reraises with, but we dont know his ranges. I would hope to think KQ AJ A10 would not be in those ranges, but you never know.

[SonofDjugashvili]

I am not looking at overall EV. Once you check and the turn bricks, is it +'ve or -'ve EV to call a shove or shove? If you check the flop, is it really necessary to call his shove, or, given that there is only 1 card to come, is it better to fold?

[8Adam8]

Checking behind for value against any possible hands we are ahead of is straight silly

Shove and take the big pot vs weak hands
Shove and take the pot vs hands you are ahead of that fold
Shove and win the flip vs really good hands that villain calls with

[Sherman]

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Checking behind for value against any possible hands we are ahead of is straight silly

Shove and take the big pot vs weak hands
Shove and take the pot vs hands you are ahead of that fold
Shove and win the flip vs really good hands that villain calls with

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Plz Add:

Shove to fold out hands that otherwise would have paid you off on the turn.

[weimoxer]

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but we are drawing to the nuts with a nice hand, we dont have them yet

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Correction, not even drawing to the nuts with paired board...

[tvta]

sherman i we can all see your logic, but it simply comes down to how bluff prone is villain when he does in fact have the worst hand. its simply my opinion (and seemingly the opinion of many others) that in reality all you hold is ak high. i find that with the flush draw on the flop the money just needs to go in on the flop, and more importantly force the decision on villain. if you wait for the turn you might as well turn your hand face up, and then the crucial allin decision is on you - not villain. assuming your assumptions are correct, you easily have a valid argument but the fact remains that putting the decision on your opponent is simply better poker (especially online).

i also think that betting protects your table image much better than checking behind with it. that easily can make villain think he can outplay you instead of fear you on first encounter. late in tourneys you dont want players thinking they can can get the best of you.

btw. calling an allin on the turn when a blank hits is very much putting a large portion of your stack as a severe underdog given villain has any pair. wouldnt you feel rather stupid in the eyes of your table when you called allin with ak high on the turn? especially when the pot was very stealable on the flop. image is everything.