Cowboys again

[FineStyle]

Thanx.
How much equity should I calculate? 9 outs to the flush, and TP. But there is still the ace out there. I have to take that into account somehow. And with 3 callers its gettin more likely.

[Niediam]

[ QUOTE ]
3-bet flop. Bet/raise river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bet/raising river is spew. Bet/call. Heck against some guys bet/fold is probably ok.

[maraden]

OTOH, I think you can still protect against weak draws if you don't bloat the pot on the flop and bet out the turn blank expecting UTG to raise. If the BTN had the flush at the turn he would have raised if decent. At the river, the CO looks like a medium to premium pair; the BTN may have Ac K if reasonable; the UTG may have AA - 99, if not Ac K. I probably call the river, but I could find a fold if I had good notes on the BTN and UTG.

[nerdking]

[ QUOTE ]
Bet/raising river is fine. Bet/call is somewhat weak/tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

We're afraid of 1 card?

[Niediam]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet/raising river is fine. Bet/call is somewhat weak/tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

We're afraid of 1 card?

[/ QUOTE ]

Definately. Villians don't raise the queen or less very often.

[KaatzMeow]

I am having a hard time understanding about not bloating the pot. My understanding is that when I have the best hand then I am going to make those draws pay but then by doing this you are "bloating" the pot which you (as I understand what has been written) are then giving the odds to the draws. What am I missing?

[marchron]

Nothing. "Bloating the pot" is a tradeoff you make when you raise the small streets for value. Someone can then incorrectly call the small streets, but because the pot is bigger, can therefore call correctly on the big money streets with their draw.

The classic example, one that's been argued a thousand times here and elsewhere, is when it's limped four or five ways to you and you're in the big blind with AKo. Some people advocate just checking here because even though you have a sizable equity edge versus all the limpers, raising will "bloat the pot" and make it correct for all the limpers to chase draws the rest of the way. Raising cashes in the preflop equity but decreases your postflop equity; checking (or just completing if you're in the SB) minimizes your preflop equity in the hopes that you can press an equity advantage postflop.

In this hand, the argument is that since the pot on the flop is so tremendously huge — 17 SB even before action starts — that your goal should be to get through this street cheaply (i.e. trade away your equity here by not "bloating the pot") in order to hopefully check/raise a safe turn card and face the field with odds more in the neighborhood of 6-1 than double-digits to 1, enough to allow a tainted gutshot to draw profitably. The problem with that thinking here is there's not enough opponents and we're in bad relative position. If we follow the "don't bloat the pot" rule, we'd smooth-call the flop, and if all works out well for us, on the turn it gets checked to the flop raiser, he bets, and we raise. The problem is there's no guarantee that the preflop capper won't donk into the flop raiser — he did — and besides that, Button still acts before us, so even in a perfect world where UTG checks and CO bets, if Button calls, our check/raise will only put the screws to UTG and leave everyone else drawing profitably for one more bet.

Basically, "don't bloat the pot" is a mostly academic concept. In the real world of micro-limit hold'em, if you act like you never heard the term "bloating the pot" and always bet/raised the current street for maximum value, you'd rarely if ever be making too big of a mistake.

[jhuttunen]

[ QUOTE ]
...Heck against some guys bet/fold is probably ok.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could you please explain this to me. I would personally never ever fold a K high flush, with a pot of 23bb after I bet the river and get raised. I just call it.

I mean, so you say that it's 100% certainty that we are against A flush? Because I think that even with 95%(5*25-95*1 > 0) it's profitable to call always.

What am I missing here? I read about these suggestions a lot. Bet river, but fold for raise in these enormous pots. I dont get it?

Please, educate me =) And if this some guys, refers to guy who never raises without A flush... I think you have to have a good read/understanding about him, because even Q raise I think would be highly possibly with 4 flush board.

[Niediam]

Some villians (much more often found in live games than online) would rather fall and break their leg then raise this river without the ace. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

My default and by far far far most used line here is bet/call.

[nerdking]

here's the deal, this isn't live and we have no reads on villain. The odds of villain having the A of whatever suit the 4flush is are crazy low. I'm not saying bet/call isn't correct, I'm just saying that we may be losing some cash here. If we've been banging away on the board why wouldn't villain put us on some mindless pocket pair and raise his flush on the river? Can someone math inclined step in and work the numbers for us?