Raise ATC from CO or button?

[Joost1982]

In some posts on this forum I read that some people "do not understand position enough". They get the advice to raise more from the CO and the button with crap hands (ATC). I have a couple of questions about this advice.

(1) Why do you have to raise?

Let's say you raise 4BB with ATC... then you risk 4BB to win 1,5BB. When the blinds fold 75% of the time, then you pick up 3x1,5=4,5BB - 1x4BB = 0,5BB profit. On the limits I play (25NL and sometimes 50NL) people in the blinds tend to call more than 40-50% of the time when you raise. Isn't this going to cost you more than you win then?

(2) What do you do when they "play back at you"?

When they just call and check to you on the flop, you cbet (when you hit nothing) and they call/raise, then it is the end of the hand, right? And when they preflop reraise, you check the odds, but then it is almost also the end of the hand?

I'm just wondering if this ATC raising is really profitable. Maybe I'm not getting it, but I really want to understand the game better, that's why I'm asking this (stupid) question...

[neaera]

like everything in poker nothing is set in stone here. if you see that the 3 guys behind you are all calling stations you obviously shouldn't steal with atc. if you're sitting in front of nits you should. in between it's a judgement call.

also a lot of the money you make from stealing comes from cbetting. as you and your opp don't hit the flop most of the time, it's good to be the aggressor. also you DO hit huge hands sometimes with rag hands, which has massive implied odds.

another good thing of stealing OTB: you're IP for the rest of the hand which is, as you know, a huge advantage. so even if they call you with what you think is a bad hand, you are still in a good position to outplay them.

I personally cut down on the stealing vs. loose guys, especially from the CO. and if you get caught stealing: give up. most ppl don't resteal with [censored].

[EscapePlan9]

I've never read someone here advocating raising ATC from CO/BTN for all micro-limit situations. I think you're misunderstanding. You adjust your ranges depending on the players still to act.

[rjacobs003]

Its also really astonishing how many times people fold to the CB though. I make most of my money this way not so much from the blinds but rather the situations where the blinds call my raise and then fold to the CB. Sure you get the situation where you are check-raised but that's been the exception in most cases making an open-raise from LP really positive EV IMO

[EscapePlan9]

You make most of your money by picking up a bunch of small pots? That's pretty awful.

[Perk76]

Being active from the CO/Btn has a ton of advantages. Obviously you always have position from the players that call from the blinds. If they are constantly calling, they have to over come a disadvantage on all their hands being OOP. If they start playing back at you, you adjust. You have the advantage of taking free cards a large percent of the time if you totally miss or have an odd draw.

As a poster already said, players that are weak that call from the blinds alot will fold to CB's a very large percent of the time.

So in the example of ATC, you might feel like you are just slightly +EV, but in the big picture of things, it is giving you a looser image than you actually have, and people will not give you credit on hands when you actually have them in late position, and more importantly, they start calling looser in generally even when you raise UTG.

[blackize]

[ QUOTE ]

You make most of your money by picking up a bunch of small pots? That's pretty awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the way that semi-LAG or LAG poker is played. You pick up lots of small pots and hopefully people start looking you up light in the big pots. Picking up a ton of small pots is very very profitable.

Raising any two from the button is terrible and even more so from the cutoff. You can raise wide from those late positions, but you'll want to tailor how much you do it to your opponents rather than having a set range. If the blinds are super loose preflop and fold to lots of cbets you can raise all kinds of junk(still not 100% mind you, but something like 50% would work against these opponents). You can also raise it up with tons and tons of junk against blinds who are way too tight preflop.

If the blinds are some combination of the above or some other type of player then you obviously adjust your strategy. If the BB is a calling station then quit trying to steal, raise hands that rate to be ahead of his range and then value bet mercilessly.

[rjacobs003]

[ QUOTE ]
You make most of your money by picking up a bunch of small pots? That's pretty awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it's very profitable. Why do you think it's awful??

[EscapePlan9]

I've been under the impression ever since studying poker that you should focus on winning the big pots and not worrying about the small pots as much.

[Profish2285]

Not to quote super system too much but winning the small pots gives you the ability to gamble more in the big pots as well as giving you more of a cushion for those beats. Whats wrong with picking up 2-4 bucks a hand, do that a few times and its the same as winning a big pot without the same risk.