live 67s Button

[KitCloudkicker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if anything, this argument better applies to a hand like AJo, for obvious reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously not.

[/ QUOTE ]

AJo is a top pair hand. you dont want to have the entire table trying to chase you down when you hit top pair - and chase you down correctly.

then, you might ask, why not limp AKo? simply b/c a pair of kings is going to hold up a lot more than a pair of jacks.

[Mook]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In HEPFAP on pg 33, the authors write (paraphrasing) that raising 87s in late position is probably a good play, but if you are against opponents that play too many hands and go too far with them, there is less value in raising so you should usually just call because you do not need to tie them to the pot.

The authors also state that part of the reason for raising is to get the button but we already have that.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont understand this. if you hit just a pair of 8's or 7's you arent going to win anyway. it doesnt matter if you raise PF or not. you want to tie people into the pot for when you hit a monster hand.

if anything, this argument better applies to a hand like AJo, for obvious reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

The advice (as well as pretty much all the advice in HEPFAP save the 'Loose Games' section) isn't terribly useful at, nor was it intended for, a live 4-8 game. Now at an online 4-8 game - where a raise may steal the blinds, and usually gets you heads-up, where a pair of 7's is a pretty good hand - or its live counterpart (probably 30-60 or 40-80) - this is very sound advice.

In your average live 4-8 game, a pair of 7's on the flop is a junk hand and it's not why we're playing 76s to begin with, anyway.

Mook

[BigBadBabar]

except we're apparently raising it pf now for value, lol

[Ricks]

In my paraphrasing I should have also included that he is talking about when several players have entered the pot before us.

What the author is discussing would fit the description of a loose game and would certainly be germane to this situation.

[Mook]

[ QUOTE ]
except we're apparently raising it pf now for value, lol

[/ QUOTE ]
Um, I don't get the humor. If our hand rates to win more money from the pot than we have to put in, it should be raised for value. Why should it matter whether that money is the result of frequent small-pot wins (e.g. AQo) or less-frequent large-pot wins (e.g. 76s)?

Otherwise, why would you ever raise JJ in this spot? I mean, we all know that unimproved JJ never hold up in a multiway pot at live 4-8, right?

Mook

[B_Movie_Fan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The primary reasons for raising (metagame, hand disguising) are pretty much nullified by the general sucktitude of all the people playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are not the primary reasons for raising, nor should they ever be. Possibly excluding HU matches.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely came off wrong. I meant the primary reasons for raising a hand like this on the button, not raising any hand.

If people can convince me that 67s has a decent edge versus any number of opponents I will raise it in these spots all day long. I'm just very skeptical of that. Remember, even at a 4-8 table it is not against random hands; the typical donk range is something like any two broadways, any two suited, any pair, any ace, any king, and any offsuit connectors or one gappers (sometimes also any queen or any jack). I still doubt that 67s has much of an edge here at all.

[JJH3984]

Lot of posts in this thread for a raise that is esentially 0 EV. Just don't fold.

[Frond]

When I originally posted this hand I was a lot more concerned with my play from the flop on(still am). Had no idea of that it would create this much preflop response.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
When I originally posted this hand I was a lot more concerned with my play from the flop on(still am). Had no idea of that it would create this much preflop response.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the table dynamic (live games are usually passive, therefore you will not get c/r), your postflop play is standard.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

3,291,336 games 13.159 secs 250,120 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 12.307% 11.24% 01.09% 369800 35991.54 { random }
Hand 1: 12.285% 11.22% 01.09% 369326 35750.79 { random }
Hand 2: 12.261% 11.20% 01.09% 368526 35760.79 { random }
Hand 3: 12.294% 11.23% 01.08% 369673 35685.79 { random }
Hand 4: 12.287% 11.23% 01.08% 369498 35643.29 { random }
Hand 5: 12.279% 11.22% 01.08% 369329 35538.37 { random }
Hand 6: 12.234% 11.17% 01.08% 367744 35634.12 { random }
Hand 7: 14.052% 12.95% 01.13% 426127 37212.29 { 76s }


---

[/ QUOTE ]

Making the hands nonrandom only makes your equity worse. So does including the possibility that the blinds 3bet or fold. There's no way a PFR is ZOMG HUGE VALUE.