mike l. asked me

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
60-120, you're in BB, raised and folded to you, raiser offers to give you x chips back, if you don't look. Whats break-even, if raiser is raising with just his normal raising hands, and offering the deal with all his raising hands? (x doesn't have to be whole chips.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, somebody did something like this at Commerce when I was in the sb and had folded. Big blind agreed they would split. I reached and took my SB back. They complained and called the floor who sided with me. No chopping.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really nitty. You made your preflop decision, their subsequent chop doesn't affect you, it's just sour grapes to do this.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. Chopping helps facilitate collusion. The blind thief is supposed to get by two players, not one. The sb is much less apt to defend and this is cheating on the part of the other two players. The blind thief can take a stab with a substantially weaker hand if he knows the BB will chop with him.

Additionally, I had to call the floor on another occasion involving the same player. At showdown he calls out a hand he doesn't have to try to get the opponent to muck.

[DeathDonkey]

Ok I don't make deals so I'm not trying to justify anything but this has happened to me a lot and I never thought much of it. If Andy says he objects maybe I'll be a bit more wary. Sorry for attacking emerson.

-DeathDonkey

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok I don't make deals so I'm not trying to justify anything but this has happened to me a lot and I never thought much of it. If Andy says he objects maybe I'll be a bit more wary. Sorry for attacking emerson.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem, and I don't consider it an attack, just an opinion.

[ImsaKidd]

[ QUOTE ]
raisers position is super important. if its the button i would say you need a refund of less than .1bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

If your average lossrate in BB vs a btn steal is -.1bb, and youve invested .5bb, wouldnt you need .4bb back?

[Abbaddabba]

[ QUOTE ]
Not at all. Chopping helps facilitate collusion. The blind thief is supposed to get by two players, not one. The sb is much less apt to defend and this is cheating on the part of the other two players. The blind thief can take a stab with a substantially weaker hand if he knows the BB will chop with him.

[/ QUOTE ]


It only matters if they're so pussified that the mental anguish associated with playing out a hand is enough to deter them from making a steal that they otherwise think would be profitable.

But i guess anyone who'd make a deal like this would be that much of a pussy. For people who're indifferent to the action, it wont matter so long as they're getting a fair number of chips back in the deal.



To take it to even more of an extreme, i'd be just as happy to work out a deal where i receive 0.002BB per hand before the cards are even dealt out... every hand.

[Lestat]

This is done ROUTINELY at the Commerce. I don't mind it if I'm the sb for the reasons DeathDonkey has stated. I DO very much mind it, when I'm in one of the blinds and it goes raise, re-raise pre-flop, blinds fold, and then one of them asks to take the profit! It's amazing how often this is attempted in the 1-2 game.

Whatever. You can ask for a "No Chopping" button. The floor will put it in immediately on first request if you have any problem with what others are doing.

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
This is done ROUTINELY at the Commerce. I don't mind it if I'm the sb for the reasons DeathDonkey has stated. I DO very much mind it, when I'm in one of the blinds and it goes raise, re-raise pre-flop, blinds fold, and then one of them asks to take the profit! It's amazing how often this is attempted in the 1-2 game.

Whatever. You can ask for a "No Chopping" button. The floor will put it in immediately on first request if you have any problem with what others are doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a large sign a Commerce that says "No Chopping". The only chopping allowed is between the blinds when all others have folded. That's it. All else is illegal. I realize the rule is ignored by many and not enforced by the dealers.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
It only matters if they're so pussified that the mental anguish associated with playing out a hand is enough to deter them from making a steal that they otherwise think would be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is false. If you know that you'll chop with the BB, it can turn an unprofitable open-raise into a profitable one. If SB doesn't know that button and BB have a deal going, the first time it gets folded to button in this spot it will cause SB to play incorrectly, thus giving up some EV to button and BB. Very slight, and not horrible collusion, yet still collusion. Its basically like having a rule in the game that BB and button are aware of, and SB isn't.

[emerson]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It only matters if they're so pussified that the mental anguish associated with playing out a hand is enough to deter them from making a steal that they otherwise think would be profitable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is false. If you know that you'll chop with the BB, it can turn an unprofitable open-raise into a profitable one. If SB doesn't know that button and BB have a deal going, the first time it gets folded to button in this spot it will cause SB to play incorrectly, thus giving up some EV to button and BB. Very slight, and not horrible collusion, yet still collusion. Its basically like having a rule in the game that BB and button are aware of, and SB isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yepper, and it is not just the button. I've seen this going on from various table positions.

I think some of the better players believe that fish are simply there to loose their money anyway so it is not unethical to help them along. I see lots of things going on that place anyone who is not part of the "in crowd" at a major disadvantage.

[JacksonTens]

Is the raiser better than you? Like you can pokerstove equity but you can't stove ability.

I feel that is an overriding factor and the effect that these kinds of displays have on your image...

JT