Help me help a friend $33-27 on PS

Quanah Parker · #1 07-12-2007, 11:38 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

CO (t1580)
Button (t1480)
SB (t1480)
Hero (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 :#A500AF(Villian)/ (t1500)
MP1 (t1480)
MP2 (t1480)
MP3 (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]Villian)/ raises to t60, 5 folds, SB calls t50, Hero calls t40.

Flop: (t180) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t100, Villian raises to t300, SB folds, Hero calls t200.

Turn: (t780) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Villian bets t400, Hero raises to t1140, Villian calls t740 (All-In).

River: (t3060) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: t3060

Here's the deal. My buddy sent me this hand.
I told him I thought he played it very badly, and he disagreed.
It's a $33-27 person on Stars. I told him I thought his preflop call, and his 100 chip bet on the flop were borderline. I think he really messed up calling Villian's raise to 300, and at that point he should have folded. I also questioned his check raise on the turn.

Am I way off here?

Camdaman19 · #2 07-12-2007, 12:07 PM

His call pre-flop is OK, not great, but OK, I agree I don't like him leading on the flop, you play suited connectors for straights and flushes not pairs, he probably should have c/f the flop.

Dunkman · #3 07-12-2007, 12:34 PM

Pf is a fold. Hand is terribly weak, and although they're suited connectors 43 doesn't make all that many straights. Also, no offense, but if he get in spots like this with it postflop, he definitely doesn't need to be playing this or any hands even remotely this weak in this spot. I could see b/f, or c/c, or c/f on the flop depending on villain, but b/c is not ok. I'm not sure what I like on the turn. I think overpairs are enough of villain's range here that it's going to be hard/impossible to get away from our hand. If we check, will villain really bet here with an overpair? I guess maybe a premium pair...I sure as hell wouldn't. If we lead and he raises would he do that with just an overpair? Again, seems unlikely. I really want to get the money in on the turn because a bunch of river cards kill our hand. However, if a player with a worse hand than ours has any sense, they'll be trying to showdown as cheaply as possible. I think I check the turn and if he checks behind I can figure him for a likely overpair and vb a safe river. If he bets, I guess I'd just CRAI and hope it's an overpair. Whether I'd call his turn bet then push a safe river or just CRAI would depend on how much of a station I thought he was and whether I thought he could fold an overpair to a river shove (would be like 1/2 the pot assuming villain made a normal sized turn bet.)

Sherman · #4 07-12-2007, 12:45 PM

I prefer folding PF.

But if I called, I'd play it like this.

Flop: Check/call.

Turn: check/shove.

Edit to note the check/call on the flop is with the intention of check/shoving regardless of the turn card.

hamnegger · #5 07-12-2007, 12:56 PM

i think given pos of the preflop raise hand is good here i don't like the lead flop . c/call bc u have gut and some other outs

Quanah Parker · #6 07-12-2007, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I prefer folding PF.

But if I called, I'd play it like this.

Flop: Check/call.

Turn: check/shove.

Edit to note the check/call on the flop is with the intention of check/shoving regardless of the turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you taking this line to represent the straight?
That's an aggressive move and I like it. Seems like a reasonable strategy that could fold a lot of stronger hands considering the board.
I'd like some kind of a read on a villian before I try this type of move, and since this hand was played early, I'm pretty sure my friend did not have any read on opponent.

Quanah Parker · #7 07-12-2007, 01:11 PM

My buddy (hero) was trying to validate his call of the flop raise to 300 as being correct by pot odds.
I told him I thought that was BS and just an excuse to stay in a hand he should have never been in. When villain raises to 300 here, it's time to fold. To call commits almost 25% of his stack, and he's got a bottom pair, and no kicker. Also, with 2 cards to come, what's he looking for? There's too few ways his hand can improve, and even, any improvement is going to be of marginal value in this spot.

It just didn't make sense to me, and I think he's overall a decent player. Maybe I'm just not good at explaining concepts, but his refusal to admit he played this hand poorly has really vexed me.

Sherman · #8 07-12-2007, 01:18 PM

The thing is, if you are going to play 43s PF against a raise, what kind of flop are you looking for? I'd argue that this is just about as good as you can hope for, so I'd play it aggressively.

I'm not playing 43s PF with the intention of check/folding or bet/folding on this flop. I prefer check/calling on the flop rather than leading because leading often lets our villain play perfect. He folds his high unpaired cards and raises his strong hands.

So let's check/call so that he has to bet both his weak and strong hands. I also check/call because it gets the pot to about the size that I want to make a big check/raise semi-bluff. A check/raise shove on the flop is too big of an overbet.

Also, check/raise shoving the turn may get villain to lay down his big hands as we represent the straight. Additionally, he may choose to check behind giving us a free card that can really hurt him.