Another "who gets kicked in the nutz"

[davidlong14]

Floor gets TWO KITN...OP gets one.

[Rottersod]

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I got a lot of flack from one of the respected players at the table after the hand. He was not involved in this hand, but said that he would be really pissed at me had he been in the pot and I was trying to make him lose the pot.

I said that I was just trying to protect the integrity of the game, and that the best hand should win. He said its a lesson all new players learn at some point. I disagree whole-heartedly.

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Next time listen to the respected players at your table. Your story has all sorts of perceptions that you wrote that maybe only you felt. Maybe the other player had no idea that his hand was any good? Maybe he really is that bad. How would you know that he had the best hand if all he showed was one Queen that was already beaten by a par of ducks? He didn't table his hand so don't get involved.

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The guy tabled his hand. It doesn't matter if he knew it was good or not. My understanding (and what I base my actions on) is that cards speak. So if he turns his cards up, it doesn't matter if he doesn't know what he has. And if he's turned his cards up and the dealer mucks them by mistake he should still be entitled to his share of the pot when the whole table can verify what he had.

Obviously if he tables his hand and no one sees it, then its tough luck for him and he should protect his cards. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.

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Late reply and I haven't read through all the others since but the point of OP's story is that they guy DIDN'T table his hand. He showed one card and then flipped both cards to the middle where one card remained face down. OP seems to believe that his intention was to table them but my point (and the other player at the table who OP says was "respected") is that OP was not in the hand so he shouldn't have said anything.

[Rottersod]

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I got a lot of flack from one of the respected players at the table after the hand. He was not involved in this hand, but said that he would be really pissed at me had he been in the pot and I was trying to make him lose the pot.

I said that I was just trying to protect the integrity of the game, and that the best hand should win. He said its a lesson all new players learn at some point. I disagree whole-heartedly.

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Next time listen to the respected players at your table. Your story has all sorts of perceptions that you wrote that maybe only you felt. Maybe the other player had no idea that his hand was any good? Maybe he really is that bad. How would you know that he had the best hand if all he showed was one Queen that was already beaten by a par of ducks? He didn't table his hand so don't get involved.

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WRONG WRONG WRONG! You are TOTALLY off base here. This is a simple matter of explaining the rules and procedures to a new player who was about to (and ultimately did) get screwed by his lack of understanding. That is *NOT* violating one player to a hand, and I don't give a flying rodent's rump whether someone else at the table likes or doesn't like it. I do not have to sit idle and watch as a new player gets screwed by rules nits. Anyone trying to win the pot this way is simply a low-life cheat in my book. Sputter away at me all you like, but I'm gonna open my mouth every time I see something like this happen at a game with n00bies.

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What rule nits Bav? I'm surprised at you. Read OP's story. The guy did not table his hand and who knows what his intentions were? Are you going to believe OP just because he wrote the story? Don't you think he shaded it with his own perceptions? As he also wrote the respected player at the table disagreed with him so that tells me that there was something more to the story than what we are getting.

As I write in my next post the only thing I am disagreeing with OP is that he shouldn't have told the guy to turn over both cards because he wasn't in the hand. I do believe that the Floor should have ruled the guys hand was live and the winner but that comes after. My whole point being stay out of hands you are not involved in UNTIL all cards have been tabled (which clearly hadn't happened yet).

[Rottersod]

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From Robert's Rules:
Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management's discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

I think this should have been ruled a live hand "in the best interests of the game" but it wasn't.

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Exactly. I agree that the Floor should have ruled his hand was live. The point I was making in my earlier replies to OP was simply that OP, as a player not in the hand should have kept out of it.

[rbenuck4]

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Are you going to believe OP just because he wrote the story? Don't you think he shaded it with his own perceptions? As he also wrote the respected player at the table disagreed with him so that tells me that there was something more to the story than what we are getting.


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I did not post this as a "Defend my action 2+2ers." I was, and still am curious as to the correct etiquette involved in this situation. Therefore, I tried to be as honest as I could in describing the situation. I believe you are assuming something else happened devious at the table, which is incorrect, and I believe that biases your responses here.

[steamraise]

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inexperienced player says "Go ahead dealer, turn over the other one."

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When the player says to turn his hand over the
dealer should have let go of the cards and said,
"you have to turn over your own hand".

This has nothing to do with "cards speak" or "one player to a hand".
Player was trying to turn his hand up and even asked the dealer to.

OP did nothing wrong in explaining what the dealer didn't make clear to the new guy.

Floorman gets KITN for ruling hand dead.
Dealers hand is not the muck.

[Rottersod]

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Are you going to believe OP just because he wrote the story? Don't you think he shaded it with his own perceptions? As he also wrote the respected player at the table disagreed with him so that tells me that there was something more to the story than what we are getting.


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I did not post this as a "Defend my action 2+2ers." I was, and still am curious as to the correct etiquette involved in this situation. Therefore, I tried to be as honest as I could in describing the situation. I believe you are assuming something else happened devious at the table, which is incorrect, and I believe that biases your responses here.

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I understand that. All I'm trying to tell you is that the correct etiquette is to not say anything to induce a players' decisions when you are not involved in a hand until all the action is done and the cards are tabled. Then, if the dealer tries to push a pot to the wrong hand you can feel free to speak up. Or, if the Floor comes by to make a decision you can tell them what you saw.

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I said... and that the best hand should win.

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This is NOT a reason for you to speak up.

Unless it was totally obvious he was trying to turn his hand up.

Maybe he thought he was beat and intended to muck,
dealer wasn't positive so she hesitated a little.
As an afterthought he say's "go ahead and turn the other one up"?

So in post one it appears to me you did fine.
In this post it sounds like you may have been out of line.

[bav]

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What rule nits Bav? I'm surprised at you. Read OP's story. The guy did not table his hand and who knows what his intentions were? Are you going to believe OP just because he wrote the story? Don't you think he shaded it with his own perceptions? As he also wrote the respected player at the table disagreed with him so that tells me that there was something more to the story than what we are getting.

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I have to go with what was written by OP:

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... only the already exsposed queen gets flipped up, and both and the inexperienced player tries to flip up his cards but cards end up in the middle

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He states that the player tried to table his hand. Taking his hand from him was wrong, given the above.

Yeah, change OP's story a little and my thoughts on the matter change. Change "player tries to flip up his cards" to "player tosses both cards face down toward the dealer" and it's a completely different result.

The idea that someone trying to table his cards loses the pot because he's nervous or clumsy and one of the cards ends up face down, and he's too inexperienced to know he needs to insta-grab it, irks me.

[zymmyz]

Having played alot of live Omaha 8/b, cards talk like hell, but only once they've been turned up. This seems a bit borderline, since he tried to table his hand. I would say, don't interfere, but have a word with him after the hand. That way he learns through experience to table his hand properly (though I think he did in this situation as well) and no one can say you interfered.