M<5 in turbos vs HoH's first-in vigorish

[bogey1]

I'm relatively new to turbos. In non-turbos, I've found the HoH bit about first in vigorish seems to mostly apply. I think people are more likely to call online than Harrington's books indicate, but still, it has value. With 15 minute blind levels, people will wait. My strength has historically been post flop and I seem to have a real hole in my game in the chaotic all-in preflop turbo end game.

Turbos, not so much [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. The concept of first in vigorish and associated fold equity seems to be almost non-existant once the BB approaches 1/10th the average stack size. People seem to innately get their M isn't 4-5 and it's really ~2 at best (2 trips around the table) given how quickly the blinds go up. Consequently, calls are frequent and fold equity is negligible.

Which brings me to my question. What hands do people look to shove in these situations? I realize it's a crap shoot, but I'd like to load the dice a little in my favor. Small aces seem to lead to the rail as shove cards (unless your shoving from very late position) as getting called is at best a coinflip vs 2 in-between cards or way behind a pair or bigger ace.

Should I be looking to shove more middle-good connectors (67-JT)? Something more likely to have 2 live cards?

Say 400/800/50 blinds and I have 4000 in chips. Which hands am I shoving from early/middle position? Assume everyone has me covered or enough that losing is death. Assume they'll call with any pair, any ace, KT+ and QJs+. Maybe JTs and QTs.

Some concrete examples. Which, if any, of these do you shove from UTG up through Hijack?
A2o
K9o
87s
57s
97o
Q8o

Seems like a trivial question I really should be able to figure out, but the last 20 tourneys or so I keep struggling with which hands to shove from early and middle position. Late position isn't so hard, I might actually take the blinds, but a shove from ealier than the HI almost always gets a caller.

[riverruss]

I find Harringtons M ratings are too tight in turbos(say 10min or less levels).
I generally start shoving from any position 1st in,after limpers or standard raisers,with 10bb or so Ax,Kx,pp,Q7+,J8+,T9+.78s+.
With around 13 to 18bb from any position Im raising or re-raising AI with 66-AA,AJ+,KT+,QJ+ and from CO or Button pushing virtually any 2 if 1st in.
In Turbos most players wait way to long to getting aggresive you need to consider yourself short stacked once you get down to 25bb,within 1 orbit at a 10 seat table you will be down to 10bb ish.

[mutiger91]

[ QUOTE ]
Small aces seem to lead to the rail as shove cards (unless your shoving from very late position) as getting called is at best a coinflip vs 2 in-between cards or way behind a pair or bigger ace.


[/ QUOTE ]

1) I'll take that race against 2 in-between cards any day in this situation. You're pushing because you need to double and you are ahead. It's not truly a race.

2) You WANT to get all your money in at this point. It's do or die.

3) If you are worried about domination or small pairs, use A8 as a push requirement when holding an A. That way, you are racing all small pairs and you add some smaller Aces that will be way behind you. I also like suited connectors in this spot as they have lots of possibilities.

[durron597]

with the type of hands listed as concrete examples, i really think it matters more on the stack size of the blinds than it does what your hand is

[bogey1]

[ QUOTE ]
with the type of hands listed as concrete examples, i really think it matters more on the stack size of the blinds than it does what your hand is

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I mean, normally I'd agree, but in these turbo situations the blinds are calling based on cards, not stack sizes. Barring the actual bubble hitting, few people at all are making decisions on stack sizes rather than cards.

[JoeyJoJo Shabadu]

[ QUOTE ]
Which, if any, of these do you shove from UTG up through Hijack?
A2o
K9o
87s
57s
97o
Q8o

[/ QUOTE ]

Me? Assuming everyone else is not M&lt;5 too (makes somewhat a difference for me).... I shove all except 57 and 97. But I have shoved worse too... just not often. But specially for turbos... can't say i play them that often but I follow the same ...

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
with the type of hands listed as concrete examples, i really think it matters more on the stack size of the blinds than it does what your hand is

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? I mean, normally I'd agree, but in these turbo situations the blinds are calling based on cards, not stack sizes. Barring the actual bubble hitting, few people at all are making decisions on stack sizes rather than cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're still going to get called more often by people who "don't have time to wait for a better spot" or "i don't believe him and it's ok if im wrong because i have chips". medium stacks are still tighter in general about calling allin when the blinds are biggish with hands like A9, KJ, or 44 etc. even when it's not the bubble.

[bogey1]

So, I had a thought. I took SNG power tools and set it up for 9 players. Not entirely inaccurate given about 1/3rd of the players are probably going to make money when the turbo gets to this kind of stage.

If I assume everyone is calling with the most liberal range (22+,A2s+,A3o+,KTs+,KJo+,QJs), blinds at 400/800, 4000 chips per person, then (for example) the CO+2 pushes:

22+,A6o+,A3s+,KQo,KJs+,QJs,JTs (19%)

So, question is, is this a reasonable approach to running some numbers? Is SGNPT going to be accurate enough given I'm comparing SNG with 9 players to a MTT turbo?

[afrokeys]

UTG, with those circumstances, and depending on how many players are left, and the buy in, i'll usually suck it up utg. I'll push with AXs, A9o+, 9Ts+, K9s, and usually any pair. With six players left i tighten up a little more. Deadzone for turbos has to be way less than HOH suggests. Alot of times i'll play tight utg, suck up the blinds if i dont get a hand, and push any playable two (34s+) on the button to get back to 5bbs, which is enough at this point for a turbo.