A 10 and A9 suited UTG

[TimeBandit]

I am in a full 10 person online ring game, small micro NL Do I pass on these hands under the gun or call and maybe hit the flop? I know nothing about my opponents. I know they are trouble hands but what is the general rule? Also what percent of the flop being seen is a good one. I know that I need to tighten up because mine right now according to bodog is 37%

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Under 25% in full ring is a good number to shoot at.

[QuickLearner]

Good question... There's a lot more to think about than whether you hit the flop. I'm going to asssume that you mean A10s as well as A9s and not A10o (which is a big dog from early position and isn't much of a prize even on the button!). And I'm also going to assume you're playing no-limit.

Here are a few questions to start the discussion:

Are you playing a full stack? Are your opponents?

How do the players at the table perceive you? And what is your opinion of them? Are you plsying in an aggressive game, or is everyone pretty passive? I know you said you know nothing about them, and if that's the case how does that fact influence your decision to play?

Are you willing to fold your hand if you face significant pressure and the flop doesn't hit you hard? And by hard I mean at least top 2 pair?

How many opponents do you want to face with these hands? What action will you take to get what you want?

If you play and flop an interesting hand (like a flush draw, straight draw or one pair) how much will you have to pay to get to the showdown? Here's a spot where it would be helpful to know your opponents...

That's enough to get us started.

[TimeBandit]

Those are exactly the kinds of questions that I was looking for. They really help understanding the whole game from under the gun. Now I don't have to ask about every single hand. It is an excellent array of questions to ask live and online. I really appreciate your help. I am learnng soooo much from these posts and reading others and I am so glad that no one makes fun of the questions. Really helps when you want to post or ask something to know that you are not going to get laughed off the board. (in this forum at least) THANKS

[KampfHase]

Well, I'd make a general descision here: Fold or raise.
If I decide to play ATs in early position (UTG,UTG+1,UTG+2) not knowing my opponents, I'd go for a raise to get a feel for the table, to be able to narrow down the range of hands I will be facing, and to pretend holding AKs+. However, I'd bear in mind that if someone reraises me pre- or postflop that I am probably beat. Especially in a full ring game it is likely that you run into a better ace if someone shows strength. So, you must aim for two pair or a flush (draw) on the flop. If you miss, fold to pressure, because you might be dominated by a bigger ace (if the ace hits).

Personally, I would only limp with these aces in early position if I am facing weak/tight or loose/passive players, who will let me see the flop for cheap and if there's a lot of limping pre-flop.
If I do not feel that I have an edge, I'd rather fold both A9s and ATs in early position, because it is likely (depending on the players and their aggressiveness) that I run into a re-raise coming from AA-JJ, AKs-AQs.

Sklansky and Miller suggest in their book to usually open-limp with suited cards J+ (e.g. KJs, AQs) and any AXs, and to usually open-raise with AA-QQ, and AKs UTG.

Also, just because they r suited doesn't make these aces UTG-raising hands. Generally spoken, A9 and AT are just aces-high with a mediocre kicker. I wouldn't want to face pressure from middle position or the blinds with these hands (being out-of-position post-flop!!!).

That's my opinion. Yet, I am still an apprentice, so feel free to disagree. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[TimeBandit]

It makes sense, thanks alot

[pkbj1632]

I see in microstakes (NL25) veeerryyy hard to play OOP. i didnt see too much reraises, the guys just call your raises.
i see that a lot. even at flop not see too much reraises, only in turn and river..
i WANT the AK rereaise me!!!!

you see :
UTG limp
UTG+2 reaise 4BB --->> ( or any xxBB)
CO call
UTG ( originally limping) Call.


so on the flop you have the same situation. just dont know where you are, and worst, you dont know where THEY are.

Supose you flop your A
You bet??? you dont know if they has the better kicker..
you check??? the CO will bet you, and you lost the lead in the hands..

You flop the T/9
so.. you cbet??? you will be called, and you are constructing a bigger pot,
you check??? the CO will bet you, and you lost the lead in the hands.. and worst : are you ahead or behind??


you flop a flush draw??
Bet if POT ODDS, but you must be putting money in the pot... you want to do that ???


SO i let those hands go.
In fact, i am doing that becasue i just Dont know how to play...

I extend the original question to suited con, gappers..

[KampfHase]

[ QUOTE ]
I see in microstakes (NL25) veeerryyy hard to play OOP. i didnt see too much reraises, the guys just call your raises.
i see that a lot. even at flop not see too much reraises, only in turn and river..
i WANT the AK rereaise me!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, I agree. In those micro limits it's very hard to put an opponent on a hand (or even a certain range of hands).
It's true that you do best by only playing premium hands UTG/OOP. Oftentimes, you will be facing an AK calling mashine while holding ATs, desperately trying to put preshure on this guy, trying to knock him out and to get some kind of information about his hand or where you stand - they still will just call you down and destroy your weak kicker.
Generally, you won't lose much in throwing AT away in EP. Bust them calling mashines with your permium hands later on.

Some tables might allow you to chase a flush with ATs, but ATo won't perform well in EP in most cases, since you can't knock them calling mashines out or get a read on them.