Getting it all in, passive/aggressively, on marginal hands

Gorgias · #1 07-10-2007, 01:17 AM

In these hands "hero" is entirely unworthy of the name. I know that this play is terrible. I've done this exact same thing several times--I have a good preflop hand, raise it up, get a caller or two. And then maybe I catch a bit of the flop, or maybe miss the flop entirely. In either case I cbet. Then more action happens...I don't really know what to do. I keep trying to represent strength, don't want to check into opponent, and usually I get crushed.

Looking back on it, case 2 is especially bad. There were so many callers. It really surprised me. My flop cbet is pointless because there's no way they're all folding...

My question is: are there any general guidelines for knowing when to pull the plug on two high face cards that (a) miss the flop or (b) make a pair? Like, if I get called on the flop--generally, consider check/folding on out? Thanks in advance.

----
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($17.55)
Button ($8.30)
SB ($10.10)
BB ($10.80)
UTG ($19.35)
Hero ($10.90)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.4, CO calls $0.40, Button raises to $0.7, SB calls $0.65, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30, CO calls $0.30.

Flop: ($2.90) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2, CO folds, Button calls $2, SB calls $2.

Turn: ($8.90) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $4, Button calls $4, SB folds.

River: ($16.90) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $4.2 (All-In), Button calls $1.60 (All-In).

Final Pot: $22.70

----

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($14.40)
UTG ($18.60)
MP ($5.55)
CO ($10.75)
Button ($14.15)
Hero ($6.55)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, 1 fold, Button calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.7, BB calls $0.60, MP calls $0.60, Button calls $0.60.

Flop: ($2.80) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets $1.4, BB raises to $2.8, MP raises to $4.2, Button folds, Hero calls $2.80, BB raises to $5.6, MP calls $0.65 (All-In), Hero calls $1.40.

Turn: ($18.85) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero bets $0.25 (All-In), BB calls $0.25.

River: ($19.35) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $19.35

johndenver · #2 07-10-2007, 01:37 AM

hand 2 is horrible, you called 3 raises on the flop with nothing

fold after one raise, it is ok to cbet that, but fold to resistance

hand 1 isnt too too bad, that 2nd ten would scare me alot with 2 callers, i would bet less than you did on the turn, like maybe 2$ and see what happens

ocdscale · #3 07-10-2007, 01:43 AM

Betting $2 on the Turn in Hand 1...

With stacks the way they are, depending on reads on villains, I either check (with expectation of calling all-in) or shove myself.
Buttons minraise preflop is interesting, but he's on the button and it could mean anything.

Hand 2 is really butchered. Did you honestly think you had a hand worth a call after BB raised you, then MP raised again? Such an easy fold.

PaulS · #4 07-10-2007, 09:21 AM

Whether or not to continuation bet without much of a hand depends on the number of opponents you face and the texture of the board. More players in the pot means it's more likely that someone has caught something, and will not fold to a cbet. Drawier flops also make it less likely that your opponent(s) will fold.

So in hand 2, given that there are several players in the pot and the flop contained a Q and 2 hearts, you should not have cbet. For a cbet to be profitable when you have not flopped anything, you need to get everyone to fold a good amount of the time...if you cbet 1/2 pot, 33% of the time, and if you cbet full pot, 50% of the time. With so many loose opponents in the pot, this just isn't going to happen. So a better line would have been to check and fold to any bet.

As you seem to recognize, putting any more money in the pot after you were raised was terrible. Your opponents were representing strength and you had absolutely nothing.

paulnic · #5 07-10-2007, 09:49 AM

hand 1 is fine apart from i would check the turn probably. hand 2 u should be folding to any sort of resistance. this is one of the major leaks in begginers games. they cant muck hands that are beutifull preflop even when they turn worthless post flop. what do u think the raisers in hand 2 have that you beat?? AJ/A10?? not a chance, muck the ace king and wait for a better oppurtunity

PaulS · #6 07-10-2007, 09:59 AM

Hand 1:

Preflop is fine. The button and sb could have pretty strong hands, but yours might still have lots of equity. Also, we don't want to turn AQ into a bluff by reraising.

I think the flop bet is fine. You could easily have the best hand. The pot is huge, so you really don't want it to get checked around giving everyone free cards. I think you should bet more though, like 2.50, since more people are in the pot and you want to offer discouraging odds. Also, it sets you up for a nice big turn shove on most cards.

On the turn, just shove. The pot is massive and you could still be best, though it's somewhat less likely after two calls and a T on the turn. But there are still lots of possible draws and worse made hands out there, and giving a free card to those in a pot this size would be a disaster. And I can definitely see some worse hands calling a shove at these stakes.

Checking seems worse. Aside from the free card problem, I don't think your opponents will bluff or value bet worse hands in a spot like this very often. Checking does allow you to fold correctly sometimes, like maybe if button shoves and sb calls, but overall I think betting has more value.

I think you played this hand somewhat reasonably, so it's sort of a bad example of the problem you are trying to address. Flopping a pretty good hand in a huge pot and going all the way with it can't be that huge a leak.

tannenj · #7 07-13-2007, 06:40 PM

in hand 1, you're not continuation betting the flop. you're donkbetting it. hand 1 can't be too bad; tough to say without stats.

hand 2, no idea what you're doing. just check the flop and fold. once you continuation bet, fold to the raise.