Bad Turn Bluff Raise?

Redeye · #1 07-08-2007, 09:13 PM

Villian seems like a decent TAG. 22/18/2 type numbers. After the flop iso, I was preparing to fold to further turn aggression. However, I thought the Q gave me the perfect card to bluff 3-bet since it looks like I iso-raised a Q on the flop. This is something I do not normally do, was this bad? Was it really a turn 3-bet or did I likely have the best hand?

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP raises, 3 folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, MP calls.

Turn: (5.20 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP raises, Hero 3-bets

Guruman · #2 07-08-2007, 09:17 PM

this is only good if he has an under pp like 88-TT and is specifically making a free sd raise that will actually fold to further action. the rest of the time he'll have a queen here. given how narrow that range is compared to his Q hands, id say its marginal at best.

pot size and opponent are right for the play though.

Point Blank · #3 07-08-2007, 09:35 PM

i don't get it ...

you said villain seems to be pretty decent

after you raise the flop MP should be concerned about the Queen ... that he raised your turn bet after the Queen hit he thinks you're FOS

GoodOL · #4 07-08-2007, 09:58 PM

I used to CR in these spots often, but have sinced stopped when up against a TAG. They typically know what you are doing and will use their positional advantage to counter (such as here).

I prefer just checking and calling the flop. Then on the turn you have options. I probably just check call again, but donking it or CR'ing it are options. The river is tougher. I try to develop very specific reads on opponents' river play (e.g. bluffs river, value bets marginal, gives up on river, etc).

mrjetguy · #5 07-08-2007, 11:15 PM

I don't think I would ever play this hand this way. I think you are putting too much action in on a hand that you would prefer to just get to showdown with if he stays in.

Oink · #6 07-09-2007, 07:38 AM

Preflop and flop is fine IMO. I c/r this flop 100% against honest TAGs.

I would very rarely 3-bet the turn and I would only do it if I had a specific read that villain is free showdown raising. If I had such a read I would also prefer to make that play with a good draw, say 8-9'ish outs. In short: I think you are spewing the turn.

UtzChips · #7 07-09-2007, 08:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
did I likely have the best hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I seriously doubt you're beating anything but AJ of spades when he raises the turn.
Wouldn't suited connectors, JTs and down, want it multi-way and limp behind preflop?
Wouldn't 77+ raise preflop?

secretprankster · #8 07-09-2007, 08:38 AM

Not a bluff, and I'm not a fan. Your preflop and flop play look exactly like a queen and he raises you anyway so he'll usually have it. If he doesn't he has a pair which will be like "oh I'll raise/fold ldo" and then never fold, or he has a hand you have reverse-dominated.

Gurravasa · #9 07-09-2007, 04:22 PM

I hate your play and I can't understand what your trying to achieve. His raise on turn says he likes his hand and even if he don't have a queen he has something that probably is better than your fours. I can't see him folding a better hand here and if you think he is on a bluff with AK, calling down is a better line.

Redeye · #10 07-09-2007, 10:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Not a bluff, and I'm not a fan. Your preflop and flop play look exactly like a queen and he raises you anyway so he'll usually have it. If he doesn't he has a pair which will be like "oh I'll raise/fold ldo" and then never fold, or he has a hand you have reverse-dominated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a Q is one of the less likely hands for MP to have. Its a flush draw board, and while my hand looks like a Q, 7, 4 or other smaller pair, I think a TAG is less likely to screw around with waiting until the turn to raise. I think the TAG will often 3bet Qs here, and even AA, KK, and JJ a lot of the time.

To me the turn raise screamed a smaller pair, 77 or QQ. I 3 bet thinking that it might work against a TAG who could raise-fold a smaller pair. There is also a small possibility that he is also taking advantage of the turn Q to steal the pot, but this probably isn't likely enough without a good read.

He folded, but I think it was a bad play, I just wanted to post it because it was something I don't usually do.