Reason to go all-in with draw on the flop?

longlags · #1 07-09-2007, 04:19 AM

I can think of one reason to get all in on draw on the flop-
saying to your opponent that you got the draw and you willing to bet it.

as example board, I use this-
Pl 1- A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (64%)
Pl 2- 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (36%)
Board- Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
(odds are on the flop)

Drawing (str8/flush) are around the 35-40% fav to win from a position of high pair against the draw.
that means more than 60% of the time you will lose the pot, and maybe your stack/buy in. that far too bad.
So, is it lack of patetaince? trying to get a big pot without your opp will later be affraid from a flushy board?

Math-wise, it makes no sense.

ev_slave · #2 07-09-2007, 04:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Math-wise, it makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

In your example, if the pot is the size of my stack, and I'm covered by villain, then I'll be getting 2:1 for my money on an all-in, which is fine mathematically since I'm a 2:1 dog. If the pot is a little larger than my stack... it's a winning play.

Not that I play draws this hard often, but it can be correct mathematically.

Tiki · #3 07-09-2007, 04:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I can think of one reason to get all in on draw on the flop-
saying to your opponent that you got the draw but really you got a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

Number27 · #4 07-09-2007, 06:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I can think of one reason to get all in on draw on the flop-
saying to your opponent that you got the draw and you willing to bet it.

as example board, I use this-
Pl 1- A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (64%)
Pl 2- 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (36%)
Board- Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
(odds are on the flop)

Drawing (str8/flush) are around the 35-40% fav to win from a position of high pair against the draw.
that means more than 60% of the time you will lose the pot, and maybe your stack/buy in. that far too bad.
So, is it lack of patetaince? trying to get a big pot without your opp will later be affraid from a flushy board?

Math-wise, it makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're assuming your opponent will call every time. Moving in is a semi-bluff. You're giving your opponent fold equity and you have outs even if you're called.

Edit: You're also forgetting that we can't see the villain's cards. Pretend the villain has a range of hands that are 66-AA, AK/AQ. If villain calls with AQ or better then we will be called by AA/KK/QQ/AQ and will fold out AK/JJ/TT/99/88/77/66.

It rarely works out that the calling ranges are that clearly defined but it illustrates the point. We need villain to fold x% of the time to justify the semi-bluff. If you think villain's range is weighted properly to meet this x% then you should clearly raise/shove.

rufus · #5 07-09-2007, 11:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I can think of one reason to get all in on draw on the flop-
saying to your opponent that you got the draw and you willing to bet it.

as example board, I use this-
Pl 1- A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (64%)
Pl 2- 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (36%)
Board- Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
(odds are on the flop)

Drawing (str8/flush) are around the 35-40% fav to win from a position of high pair against the draw.
that means more than 60% of the time you will lose the pot, and maybe your stack/buy in. that far too bad.
So, is it lack of patetience? trying to get a big pot without your opp will later be affraid from a flushy board?

Math-wise, it makes no sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

As, has already been pointed out, going all-in has 'fold equity' in the form of a semi-bluff. There are other situations where going all-in on the flop will make sense, even without fold equity:

If the odds are in your favor because you have more than 12 outs:
pokenum -h 7s 8s - ad ac -- 5s 6s 8h
Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 6s 5s 8h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
8s 7s 640 64.65 332 33.54 18 1.82 0.656
Ac Ad 332 33.54 640 64.65 18 1.82 0.344

Note that 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] is at an advantage despite being on the draw here, but if the turn is a null card (like the 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or something) then the turn bet is at a disadvantage.

Similarly, if you're already pot committed, you're going to be better off getting your money in on the flop than on the turn.

mvdgaag · #6 07-09-2007, 11:59 AM

As said above you can have better pot odds a lot of the time. Often if you are drawing and can call an allin raise profitably you should put it in yourself. Most of the time you want more than just a flushdraw to make this move.

If you pay for the turn you are only 5-1 to hit it and same goes for the nex street. If your opponent bets again on the turn you will hardly ever get the right price if you didn't hit.

If you call and another spade falls it will be hard to get your opponent to put any more money in, because you will have signaled you're likely to be on a draw.

So putting it all in gives you maximum folding equity while guaranteeing your expected share of the pot when called.

GL

btmagnetw · #7 07-09-2007, 02:25 PM

how do you know the odds of a flush draw but not know what pot odds are?

mvdgaag · #8 07-09-2007, 07:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
how do you know the odds of a flush draw but not know what pot odds are?

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean? Maybe you didn't understand me, I'll put it down in other words.

Sometimes the pot is already the size of your stack or close to it... so if you get called you are getting about 2-1 odds which is enough to make the play breakeven if called (with only the nut flushdraw). But most of the times if you are going to push you have a bigger effective stacks and therefore get worse pot odds so you need more equity to push profitably.

Mad Cow · #9 07-09-2007, 08:08 PM

The semi-bluff is part of a balanced strategy. When you start betting big, you want to have one of these hands:

- a very strong hand (QQ, 33, 22)
- (maybe) a strong hand (AA, KK, AQ, 6s4s)
- a semi-bluff

Why a semi-bluff that only wins 36%? Well, it is much better than a pure bluff than wins 5%.

If the stack/pot ratio is big, it is important that your opponent thinks that you may very well hold a very strong hand. Without this prerequisite, you won't have enough fold equity (i.e. your opponent won't fold often enough).

RichGambler · #10 07-09-2007, 08:36 PM

1. You will have folding equity about 70%+ of the time. (not so easy to call all in with mediciore hands)
2. If they see that you go all in on flush draw next time you get more action on your strong hands.
3. Sometimes Ax on flush draw vs Kxx or Qxx or Jxx has more then 40%+ chance to win vs top pair