Live 6/12: A9s-what stage of Zee development am I at?

[Gap23Razor]

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Saturday night, 9 handed,~4 to every flop, a tad more aggressive than typical for a saturday nite. EP has been fairly non-descript, playing few hands and going to showdown rarely. BB is a 65+yo hispanic gentleman who has done nothing outlandish.

EP limp, I call with Ac9c in MP, 2 others call, BB calls.
F: A6c5
BB bets, EP calls, I raise, 2 fold, BB raises, EP calls, I call.
T: 8c
BB bets, EP calls, I raise...

Watcha think?

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whoa Mista C! dat turn raise was correctomundo...

let's see, all you had was top pair, a draw to the nut flush and a gut shot to a straight (although just one that uses only 1 of you hole cards and is not the nut straight--still, you straight is on the high end of the straight) lotsa outs plus you may be the top hand right now...good betting the turn

let count the outs...9 for the flush, 3 more for the straight (7c already counted), ding one because it isn't to top straight, but add 1 for maybe being top hand right now with AA, and 1 more for if you nine pairs...i come up with 13...13 out of 46 cards help you...your bet odds are 13 helps versus 23 no helps...i would say that if you get two callers for each bet you put in now you have +ev...and betting on the turn is right, as if the flush comes on the river you won't get much action, but you should get some when your bets are a no-risk free-roll...good play...

[KitCloudkicker]

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[ QUOTE ]
Saturday night, 9 handed,~4 to every flop, a tad more aggressive than typical for a saturday nite. EP has been fairly non-descript, playing few hands and going to showdown rarely. BB is a 65+yo hispanic gentleman who has done nothing outlandish.

EP limp, I call with Ac9c in MP, 2 others call, BB calls.
F: A6c5
BB bets, EP calls, I raise, 2 fold, BB raises, EP calls, I call.
T: 8c
BB bets, EP calls, I raise...

Watcha think?

[/ QUOTE ]

whoa Mista C! dat turn raise was correctomundo...

let's see, all you had was top pair, a draw to the nut flush and a gut shot to a straight (although just one that uses only 1 of you hole cards and is not the nut straight) lotsa outs plus you may be the top hand right now...good betting the turn

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what on earth makes you think A9 is ahead after a passive BB 3 bets the flop?

[Gap23Razor]

"what on earth makes you think A9 is ahead after a passive BB 3 bets the flop?"

his 2 Aces and okay kicker...please recall i said "may be ahead" and i figured that was worth 1 out (not 2) in the overall scheme of things...but the real strength of the hand is with the flush and straight draw IMHO...strength from possibly being ahead plus that from pairing an okay kicker or getting another A is contributory but not central to my decision...

btw, the flippyness my previous answer was not directed at you, rather i was having sharing a joke/playing along/having fun with MrCunningham, whose avatar is Tom Bosley, the actor who played Howard Cunningham on Happy Days...sorry if you took it personal... but my opinion, though its contrary to yours, is firm

[Drjekel]

*****
i would say that if you get two callers for each bet you put in now you have +ev...and betting on the turn is right, as if the flush comes on the river you won't get much action, but you should get some when your bets are a no-risk free-roll...good play...
******

And what do you do if your 3 bet?

[Lanzalot]

I'd like your turn raise better if your 7 and 9 outs were a little cleaner. It's tough to read EP for a smaller flush draw, from how you described him. Maybe he's got 87? If a nine comes, your turn raise might only make you those two extra bets because the 9 might induce the BB to check the river and then you can't raise it. And if he bets when a nine comes there's a strong chance your beat by a set. So it seems your aggro-raising your flush draw at a player who has played back at you once already and another that has at least a solid draw himself. If you could read both the others for a pair of aces, your play is really strong, but there are only so many aces in the deck.

[Gap23Razor]

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*****
i would say that if you get two callers for each bet you put in now you have +ev...and betting on the turn is right, as if the flush comes on the river you won't get much action, but you should get some when your bets are a no-risk free-roll...good play...
******

And what do you do if your 3 bet?

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presuming there are still 2 villains in the hand i cap...the board is not paired so there is no full house out there yet

i believe betting strong draws aggressively helps disguise the time one has strong made hands...

[KitCloudkicker]

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*****
i would say that if you get two callers for each bet you put in now you have +ev...and betting on the turn is right, as if the flush comes on the river you won't get much action, but you should get some when your bets are a no-risk free-roll...good play...
******

And what do you do if your 3 bet?

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presuming there are still 2 villains in the hand i cap...the board is not paired so there is no full house out there yet

i believe betting strong draws aggressively helps disguise the time one has strong made hands...

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wow, quite a spew....is this the slag style elindauer was talking about? i cant see myself ever doing this and i'm glad i dont.

if everyone here thinks capping here with only 7-8 clean outs is the right play, well then i guess i have to relearn poker.

[Gap23Razor]

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*****
i would say that if you get two callers for each bet you put in now you have +ev...and betting on the turn is right, as if the flush comes on the river you won't get much action, but you should get some when your bets are a no-risk free-roll...good play...
******

And what do you do if your 3 bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

presuming there are still 2 villains in the hand i cap...the board is not paired so there is no full house out there yet

i believe betting strong draws aggressively helps disguise the time one has strong made hands...

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, quite a spew....is this the slag style elindauer was talking about? i cant see myself ever doing this and i'm glad i dont.

if everyone here thinks capping here with only 7-8 clean outs is the right play, well then i guess i have to relearn poker.

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my new friend & debate adversary, please play your way if that what you are comfortable with, and thanks for the discourse...i believe that you are a winning player

i still you have more outs than just 7 or 8...if you are up against trips, you have 8 from the flush (as only the 5c pairs the board, the Ac you have in your hand) plus a 7 gives you a straight to beat a full house...10 there

if you are up against a made straight, 97s, 9 clubs give beat that, and one of the 2 sevens left would tie that..give yourself 1 out for the split pot...so again you have at least 10 outs

a better A? all flush & straight draws plus the 9 draws are live

potentially, the 9 clubs, the 3 Aces & 3 9's & 3 more 7's give 18 ways to improve; to make my decision i reduce the count down to 13 to get a good idea of what is my action should be on the turn.

[KitCloudkicker]

excellent points GAP23. i guess this becomes a pot odds discussion. assuming (a big assumption) that the EP player would call if the BB 3 bet, how many outs would be need to have to cap profitably? 18 is surely enough...is 15? 13? i'm forgetting my math here....

btw i had (maybe) a similar situation come up a few weeks ago. I had A7s, in a 7 way capped pot preflop. the flop gave me two to my suit, and everyone was in for 2 bets. the turn blanked, and there was a bet to my left. 6 people stayed in and I just called, and i thought this was a mistake (I should have CR'd). it turned out the bettor on my left had flopped a set and would have likely 3 bet if i CR'd the turn.

my point is, at what point do you pump your draw at the risk of having someone 3 bet and shut out the field? wouldnt you need some more people in this pot on the turn b4 attempting this play?

[Esso]

Strictly speaking, with two opponents you need 16+ outs to make the bet +ev. You don't have sixteen outs here. Of course, there are other factors that might make a turn raise the right play.