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#21
07-08-2007, 10:58 PM
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Re: 25NL (9Max): AQ on SB, how do I defend blinds?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Well let's put it this way, if the raise came from MP I would call. So if I didn't think his range was much different OTB i'd probably still call. In general I play SB with about the same PF "standards" as I play MP. I think it's a rare opponent that doesn't at least loosen up a bit OTB though isn't it? I wouldn't fold this hand unless the raise was from UTG or UTG+1 from a known tight player. [/ QUOTE ] Say you are sitting in the HJ with tight players to your left. MP1 opens for a raise, do you call? A lot of opponents don't loosen up enough to notice without playing a lot of hands. In fact, I think you should assume an opponent is raising strong hands only until you see him get out of line. You could even make the raiser in EP. Do you call fold or 3-bet? Yes, I am going somewhere with this. [/ QUOTE ] Assuming villain is TAG. Sitting on HJ (HJ = CO right?), I call (maybe raise) EP/MP1's open raise, mainly because we have position. Sitting on SB/BB, I would call and c/f to a Flop like this one. Raising would not be my option anymore. This is because I am afraid to play an inflated pot with a not-so-good hand OOP. Good? Bad? [/ QUOTE ] HJ = 2 off the button. Even villain is a tight raiser, which is what I specified, what value does AQ have against his raising range? If you had the button it would be different, but since you don't a call here isn't good. A reraise would be fine if he had a wide raising range. Folding in this spot is correct. [/ QUOTE ] Nobody every asked where I was going with this... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] My point was if a guy has a tight raising range and we are folding AQ in the HJ (or even the CO) then we certainly shouldn't be calling his raise when we are in the SB. The value of "defending" your blinds and the disadvantage OOP requires that we have some sort of evidence that this guy has a wide raising range before we start playing AQ OOP against a raiser. [/ QUOTE ] So back to the original HH, since the raising range of the villain is unlikely to just be JJ+AK, I should 3bet PF in this situation? And I guess calling is a second best option, and folding is the worst? 
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#22
07-08-2007, 11:02 PM
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Re: 25NL (9Max): AQ on SB, how do I defend blinds?
Today I fall victim again on blind defend, tho this time it's on post-flop play...
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums) saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font> <font color="#C00000">Button ($17.85)</font> SB ($31.35) <font color="#C00000">Hero ($26.80)</font> UTG ($9.50) MP ($27.45) CO ($18.80) Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $0.5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1.5</font>, Button calls $1. Flop: ($3.10) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> Hero checks, Button checks. Turn: ($3.10) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $1.5</font>, Button calls $1.50. River: ($6.10) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font> <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, Button calls $3. Final Pot: $12.10
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#23
07-09-2007, 08:26 AM
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Re: 25NL (9Max): AQ on SB, how do I defend blinds?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Well let's put it this way, if the raise came from MP I would call. So if I didn't think his range was much different OTB i'd probably still call. In general I play SB with about the same PF "standards" as I play MP. I think it's a rare opponent that doesn't at least loosen up a bit OTB though isn't it? I wouldn't fold this hand unless the raise was from UTG or UTG+1 from a known tight player. [/ QUOTE ] Say you are sitting in the HJ with tight players to your left. MP1 opens for a raise, do you call? A lot of opponents don't loosen up enough to notice without playing a lot of hands. In fact, I think you should assume an opponent is raising strong hands only until you see him get out of line. You could even make the raiser in EP. Do you call fold or 3-bet? Yes, I am going somewhere with this. [/ QUOTE ] Assuming villain is TAG. Sitting on HJ (HJ = CO right?), I call (maybe raise) EP/MP1's open raise, mainly because we have position. Sitting on SB/BB, I would call and c/f to a Flop like this one. Raising would not be my option anymore. This is because I am afraid to play an inflated pot with a not-so-good hand OOP. Good? Bad? [/ QUOTE ] HJ = 2 off the button. Even villain is a tight raiser, which is what I specified, what value does AQ have against his raising range? If you had the button it would be different, but since you don't a call here isn't good. A reraise would be fine if he had a wide raising range. Folding in this spot is correct. [/ QUOTE ] Nobody every asked where I was going with this... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] My point was if a guy has a tight raising range and we are folding AQ in the HJ (or even the CO) then we certainly shouldn't be calling his raise when we are in the SB. The value of "defending" your blinds and the disadvantage OOP requires that we have some sort of evidence that this guy has a wide raising range before we start playing AQ OOP against a raiser. [/ QUOTE ] So back to the original HH, since the raising range of the villain is unlikely to just be JJ+AK, I should 3bet PF in this situation? And I guess calling is a second best option, and folding is the worst? [/ QUOTE ] Why would you put it that order?
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#24
07-09-2007, 09:50 AM
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Re: 25NL (9Max): AQ on SB, how do I defend blinds?
Not saying I do this often enough but I think a raise > fold > call. You will almost always miss the flop and unless you are willing to float and hit or "steal" on the turn (raising the flop seems way too costly against an unknown) then you are just having to c/f almost always. IMO it's much better to either be aggressive upfront or to just wait for a better spot against an unknown.
Just my relatively noob $.02...
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#25
07-09-2007, 11:34 AM
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Re: 25NL (9Max): AQ on SB, how do I defend blinds?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Well let's put it this way, if the raise came from MP I would call. So if I didn't think his range was much different OTB i'd probably still call. In general I play SB with about the same PF "standards" as I play MP. I think it's a rare opponent that doesn't at least loosen up a bit OTB though isn't it? I wouldn't fold this hand unless the raise was from UTG or UTG+1 from a known tight player. [/ QUOTE ] Say you are sitting in the HJ with tight players to your left. MP1 opens for a raise, do you call? A lot of opponents don't loosen up enough to notice without playing a lot of hands. In fact, I think you should assume an opponent is raising strong hands only until you see him get out of line. You could even make the raiser in EP. Do you call fold or 3-bet? Yes, I am going somewhere with this. [/ QUOTE ] Assuming villain is TAG. Sitting on HJ (HJ = CO right?), I call (maybe raise) EP/MP1's open raise, mainly because we have position. Sitting on SB/BB, I would call and c/f to a Flop like this one. Raising would not be my option anymore. This is because I am afraid to play an inflated pot with a not-so-good hand OOP. Good? Bad? [/ QUOTE ] HJ = 2 off the button. Even villain is a tight raiser, which is what I specified, what value does AQ have against his raising range? If you had the button it would be different, but since you don't a call here isn't good. A reraise would be fine if he had a wide raising range. Folding in this spot is correct. [/ QUOTE ] Nobody every asked where I was going with this... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] My point was if a guy has a tight raising range and we are folding AQ in the HJ (or even the CO) then we certainly shouldn't be calling his raise when we are in the SB. The value of "defending" your blinds and the disadvantage OOP requires that we have some sort of evidence that this guy has a wide raising range before we start playing AQ OOP against a raiser. [/ QUOTE ] So back to the original HH, since the raising range of the villain is unlikely to just be JJ+AK, I should 3bet PF in this situation? And I guess calling is a second best option, and folding is the worst? [/ QUOTE ] Why would you put it that order? [/ QUOTE ] Let me put it a different way. This guy's raising range doesn't even need to be as tight as JJ+/AK for this to be a fold. I think you are underestimating how much being OOP sucks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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#26
07-09-2007, 12:39 PM
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Re: 25NL (9Max): AQ on SB, how do I defend blinds?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Well let's put it this way, if the raise came from MP I would call. So if I didn't think his range was much different OTB i'd probably still call. In general I play SB with about the same PF "standards" as I play MP. I think it's a rare opponent that doesn't at least loosen up a bit OTB though isn't it? I wouldn't fold this hand unless the raise was from UTG or UTG+1 from a known tight player. [/ QUOTE ] Say you are sitting in the HJ with tight players to your left. MP1 opens for a raise, do you call? A lot of opponents don't loosen up enough to notice without playing a lot of hands. In fact, I think you should assume an opponent is raising strong hands only until you see him get out of line. You could even make the raiser in EP. Do you call fold or 3-bet? Yes, I am going somewhere with this. [/ QUOTE ] Assuming villain is TAG. Sitting on HJ (HJ = CO right?), I call (maybe raise) EP/MP1's open raise, mainly because we have position. Sitting on SB/BB, I would call and c/f to a Flop like this one. Raising would not be my option anymore. This is because I am afraid to play an inflated pot with a not-so-good hand OOP. Good? Bad? [/ QUOTE ] HJ = 2 off the button. Even villain is a tight raiser, which is what I specified, what value does AQ have against his raising range? If you had the button it would be different, but since you don't a call here isn't good. A reraise would be fine if he had a wide raising range. Folding in this spot is correct. [/ QUOTE ] Nobody every asked where I was going with this... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] My point was if a guy has a tight raising range and we are folding AQ in the HJ (or even the CO) then we certainly shouldn't be calling his raise when we are in the SB. The value of "defending" your blinds and the disadvantage OOP requires that we have some sort of evidence that this guy has a wide raising range before we start playing AQ OOP against a raiser. [/ QUOTE ] So back to the original HH, since the raising range of the villain is unlikely to just be JJ+AK, I should 3bet PF in this situation? And I guess calling is a second best option, and folding is the worst? [/ QUOTE ] Why would you put it that order? [/ QUOTE ] Let me put it a different way. This guy's raising range doesn't even need to be as tight as JJ+/AK for this to be a fold. I think you are underestimating how much being OOP sucks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I was thinking of MTBlue's advice. [ QUOTE ] When should you reraise AQ? When the openers range is larger than JJ+AKo+ and will call the reraise with worse. When should you fold AQ? When the openers range is basically JJ+ AKo+ When should you call AQ? When the openers range is broad, but he only calls the reraise with JJ+ AKo+ [/ QUOTE ] Since his raising range is wider than JJ+AK+, AQ has an edge over his range. Therefore folding would be a terrible idea. However, I guess we have to take into account of being OOP. Hmm... so I guess it's Raising >>> folding > calling.
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#27
07-09-2007, 12:55 PM
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Re: 25NL (9Max): AQ on SB, how do I defend blinds?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Well let's put it this way, if the raise came from MP I would call. So if I didn't think his range was much different OTB i'd probably still call. In general I play SB with about the same PF "standards" as I play MP. I think it's a rare opponent that doesn't at least loosen up a bit OTB though isn't it? I wouldn't fold this hand unless the raise was from UTG or UTG+1 from a known tight player. [/ QUOTE ] Say you are sitting in the HJ with tight players to your left. MP1 opens for a raise, do you call? A lot of opponents don't loosen up enough to notice without playing a lot of hands. In fact, I think you should assume an opponent is raising strong hands only until you see him get out of line. You could even make the raiser in EP. Do you call fold or 3-bet? Yes, I am going somewhere with this. [/ QUOTE ] Assuming villain is TAG. Sitting on HJ (HJ = CO right?), I call (maybe raise) EP/MP1's open raise, mainly because we have position. Sitting on SB/BB, I would call and c/f to a Flop like this one. Raising would not be my option anymore. This is because I am afraid to play an inflated pot with a not-so-good hand OOP. Good? Bad? [/ QUOTE ] HJ = 2 off the button. Even villain is a tight raiser, which is what I specified, what value does AQ have against his raising range? If you had the button it would be different, but since you don't a call here isn't good. A reraise would be fine if he had a wide raising range. Folding in this spot is correct. [/ QUOTE ] Nobody every asked where I was going with this... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] My point was if a guy has a tight raising range and we are folding AQ in the HJ (or even the CO) then we certainly shouldn't be calling his raise when we are in the SB. The value of "defending" your blinds and the disadvantage OOP requires that we have some sort of evidence that this guy has a wide raising range before we start playing AQ OOP against a raiser. [/ QUOTE ] So back to the original HH, since the raising range of the villain is unlikely to just be JJ+AK, I should 3bet PF in this situation? And I guess calling is a second best option, and folding is the worst? [/ QUOTE ] Why would you put it that order? [/ QUOTE ] Let me put it a different way. This guy's raising range doesn't even need to be as tight as JJ+/AK for this to be a fold. I think you are underestimating how much being OOP sucks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Yeah, I was thinking of MTBlue's advice. [ QUOTE ] When should you reraise AQ? When the openers range is larger than JJ+AKo+ and will call the reraise with worse. When should you fold AQ? When the openers range is basically JJ+ AKo+ When should you call AQ? When the openers range is broad, but he only calls the reraise with JJ+ AKo+ [/ QUOTE ] Since his raising range is wider than JJ+AK+, AQ has an edge over his range. Therefore folding would be a terrible idea. However, I guess we have to take into account of being OOP. Hmm... so I guess it's Raising >>> folding > calling. [/ QUOTE ] His range has to be way wider than your given range. For example TT+/AK it is still a fold. Folding isn't terrible here if you will be the one making the big mistakes postflop and he will be the one making small mistakes(and that is what happens when you are OOP vs a tight raiser). I think I made a case for folding earlier if you compare it to the situation where you have AQo against the same range when you are 3 off the button. If calling is incorrect there it most certainly is here. You need to have a significant edge, in some way, to be willing to play AQo OOP against a raiser.
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#28
07-09-2007, 01:50 PM
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Re: 25NL (9Max): AQ on SB, how do I defend blinds?
Original post:
Unknown villain (bttn) I MOST CERTAINLY repop her "steal". I will CBet PSB just about every flop. (Then I am done) Set the tone. Make a statement. My blinds are My Blinds. Think along the lines of your table dynamics. You want to control the two to your left and the two to your right. New villain sits down two to your right (or u just take the seat two to her left) and she immediately pops you. Now I'm not saying I do this EVERY time, but I do this alot.... POP back ATC. If villain folds, show/don't show, I don't care. If villain calls, cross yer fingers and hope for a good flop. AQo is a VERY good hand to repop with as it has some playability. Can you assume since villain is unknown to you, that you are unknown to villain? What is the PERCENTAGE of players that will first-in raise on the button and call a good sized SB repop holding ONLY an above average hand????? You're an unknown....and reraising OOP...... can bttn beat AA,KK,QQ,AK ????? Raise>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>Fold>>>>>> ;>>>>>call. Who the heck votes call to play AQo OOP ? Just a TERRIBLE trap hand to be playing OOP. IMHO [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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#29
07-09-2007, 02:20 PM
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Re: 25NL (9Max): AQ on SB, how do I defend blinds?
[ QUOTE ]
Original post: Unknown villain (bttn) I MOST CERTAINLY repop her "steal". I will CBet PSB just about every flop. (Then I am done) Set the tone. Make a statement. My blinds are My Blinds. Think along the lines of your table dynamics. You want to control the two to your left and the two to your right. New villain sits down two to your right (or u just take the seat two to her left) and she immediately pops you. Now I'm not saying I do this EVERY time, but I do this alot.... POP back ATC. If villain folds, show/don't show, I don't care. If villain calls, cross yer fingers and hope for a good flop. AQo is a VERY good hand to repop with as it has some playability. Can you assume since villain is unknown to you, that you are unknown to villain? What is the PERCENTAGE of players that will first-in raise on the button and call a good sized SB repop holding ONLY an above average hand????? You're an unknown....and reraising OOP...... can bttn beat AA,KK,QQ,AK ????? Raise>>>>>>>>>>>& gt;>>>>>Fold>>>>>> ;>>>>>call. Who the heck votes call to play AQo OOP ? Just a TERRIBLE trap hand to be playing OOP. IMHO [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Hey now, I never said I liked calling. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I was merely stating that I think playing this hand OOP all the time is bad. I think it is dependent on the read of the players. This can vary limit to limit and so on. Maybe my comments came off the right way but I was just trying to make sure that people know that playing AQo in this spot is not automatic. I don't know enough about this level to make a definitive statement. As I said earlier, I would guess that an unknown at this level would have a tight raising range and 3-betting a guy with a tight raising range is bad with this hand.
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