PS 6.50- KK on a semi-scary flop

[KyleH186]

I shoved, hated it as I did it. They both had 8 9, with the raiser having 8 9 of hearts for the flush draw also lol.

[cougar62]

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So i would need 3 to 1 call approximately?

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actually that's an ICM problem, since we were talking about chip equity, not $$ equity, which is basically what an ICM calculator does. It converts chip equity into $$ equity based on the prize pool and payouts.

Since I'm lazy right now, and also because it will help you immensely in understanding the concept, go to chillin411.com, click the icm calculator at the top, and plug in the chip values assuming hero wins, hero loses, or hero folds, and that will give you an idea of what he needs to get all in.

[cougar62]

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I shoved, hated it as I did it. They both had 8 9, with the raiser having 8 9 of hearts for the flush draw also lol.

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The point is you made the right play, if anything because Gator said so [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], though I agree. NH

[AMT]

the fact that they both had the nuts proves it was a good shove. seriously, this doesnt often happen at the 6.50s, you found them both at the absolute top of their ranges. if you dont think these villains are taking these lines with any overpair of something like A8 or TPTK or a flush draw (where you have 2nd nut redraw just in case, to add to that), then youd be mistaken absent of any reads indicating otherwise. shoving is still fine here.


and yes, all the hands that beat you are in both of their ranges, but that doesnt stop the ranges on such a drawy board to be extremely extremely wide at this buy in without a read.

[fishesass]

i don't agree that this is a shove. The argument that most players at the 6.50's are donks doesn't hold in the instance. You can't ignore the raise from MP3. This is an indication that he has a strong hand. Too many times i have made the assumption that villain is a donk and then donked off MY stack. This is not the correct play. The donks at the 6.50's still know what a strong hand is. With two others in the hand, it is less likely that you have them both beat. With the raise from MP3, i think this is a fold.

[cougar62]

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i don't agree that this is a shove. The argument that most players at the 6.50's are donks doesn't hold in the instance.

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Yes it does

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You can't ignore the raise from MP3. This is an indication that he has a strong hand. Too many times i have made the assumption that villain is a donk and then donked off MY stack.

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This is true

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This is not the correct play. The donks at the 6.50's still know what a strong hand is.

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and they also think that x6, x7, x5, a higher pair, or a flush draw is the nuts...

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With two others in the hand, it is less likely that you have them both beat. With the raise from MP3, i think this is a fold.

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I am picking apart your post to drive home this point...while all of that may be true in some cases, if you fold to aggression on any flop regardless of your hand you will miss more +EV situations than you do avoiding getting stacked by the rare holding.

[KyleH186]

Does the size of the villains raise come into play at all? It is basically a minraise, but 100 more chips so as not to appear as a min raise. Does this not tell me my opponent is a thinking opponent as opposed to a total donk?

That being said, which would make folding easier, if he was a total donk or a shark?

[kyro]

This is a super easy push, especially with the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

It's OK to "overplay" overpairs in a SNG. You're giving up way too much if you're folding in these instances.

[DeuceSeven]

This is such an easy shove. Ram and Jam QQ+ over pairs and tp hands AK, AQ. You'll see a super huge range at the 6.50s, u just got unlucky that they had some of the hands that beat you.