TPNFD in 3 way pot, standard? - Page 5

DJ Sensei · #41 07-05-2007, 11:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
oh we had this arguement before. i will bet this flop every [censored] time and get it in.

[/ QUOTE ]Do you have a link, or was it AIM?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't remember the thread but i think DJ sensai started asking the question in a thread four or six months ago, it was just about checking behind here or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post8918580

destroBU · #42 07-05-2007, 11:41 PM

I don't think getting it in on the flop is good, but I want to know why people think simply betting the flop and taking it from there is so terrible.

I'm fine with checking behind, too, but how can putting a bet in there be so bad?

jlocdog · #43 07-06-2007, 12:08 AM

destroBU,

If you bet this flop and get raised you have to call. MUST. Seeing as how getting all your money in on this flop would result in you chasing as few as 9 outs, you would prefer to avoid that situation.

If you are insinuating that you could bet/fold this flop then you need to reevaluate your game.

*Note* There are much worse scenarios then being all in on this flop with this hand but realizing that their are better options should make avoiding this priority.

destroBU · #44 07-06-2007, 12:08 PM

No, I'm not suggesting you fold if youre raised, I'm just saying that it's not always going to happen, and if it does happen, it's not the end of the world.

Are you just assuming we're behind most of the time on the flop? Because I'm not. I would guess that most of the time, after being checked to there, we have the best hand. I don't feel like getting checkraised is a given, at all.

And if you do happen to be checkraised, it doesnt mean you must get it in. If checkraised here, it would probably go a lot like it did on the turn: you bet $35, get checkraised to $100, call. Now, we didn't put 'our life' in there, but obviously it's not ideal. At that point you know you need to hit the turn to continue, but that's not exactly disaster, especially when I feel that's not going to be happening that often. If you bet the flop and get called, you can reassess on the turn and consider taking a free card if given.

I don't know, this doesn't seem like a terrible plan. And like I said, I don't have a problem with checking the flop. I'm just not convinced betting the flop is a disaster.

jlocdog · #45 07-06-2007, 12:52 PM

destroBU,

If you think we are ahead on this flop then most likely are opponents are drawing to 3 outs or fewer. Either they have a PP and need to hit one of 2 remaining cards or have a piece of the board and have 3 maybe 2 outs depending upon if its a club they hold or they have a weakr FD in which case we have them drawing practically dead. In all of the above scenarios in which case we are ahead, it is unlikely we will get much action from them with a bet. So in actualaty, a bet will lose value for you. We gain so much more if we let our opponent attempt to catch up. This allows him to either make a second best hand and/or bluff at this pot if he misses.

Now, sometimes we are not ahead of our opponent. In these instances you will more then likely be getting your money in with as few as 9 outs. As said earlier, sure there are worse things that could happen but if we can plainly see one move as being better then the other, then why aren't we taking that line? It is one thing to understand equity in a given hand and make the right play. It is another to manipulate a pot in which by doing so you create pot odds to chase that equity. Here I believe checking behind maximizes your your long term EV in this spot.

Antichris · #46 07-06-2007, 12:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the flop, shove over a raise is what I consider standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

and when this happens you have 9 outs just about always

[/ QUOTE ]

tuckercat · #47 07-06-2007, 01:14 PM

flop is standard. turn is ok at best, although if we're not prepared to call river, we must seriously question the mertis of basically cold calling with a naked flush draw on the turn. as played, we should give much more consideration to calling river...personally i would have liked a shove/fold decision on the turn, leaning towards fold. either way, given all the info it looks like we're calling with just the frush draw on the turn. i don't like that at all. the turn is often the most critical street in unlimited hold em, and i think in this hand we made a -ev play on the turn.

jlocdog · #48 07-06-2007, 01:21 PM

tuckercat,

You do realize that we have MUCH more then a 'naked flush draw'. Two pair and the naked NFD to be exact. And with the BB leading into 2 people AND the UTG raising on the turn, I think shoving has zero merit and folding not much less then that.

Yes unlimited holdem can be a tough game.

destroBU · #49 07-06-2007, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
destroBU,

If you think we are ahead on this flop then most likely are opponents are drawing to 3 outs or fewer. Either they have a PP and need to hit one of 2 remaining cards or have a piece of the board and have 3 maybe 2 outs depending upon if its a club they hold or they have a weakr FD in which case we have them drawing practically dead. In all of the above scenarios in which case we are ahead, it is unlikely we will get much action from them with a bet. So in actualaty, a bet will lose value for you. We gain so much more if we let our opponent attempt to catch up. This allows him to either make a second best hand and/or bluff at this pot if he misses.

Now, sometimes we are not ahead of our opponent. In these instances you will more then likely be getting your money in with as few as 9 outs. As said earlier, sure there are worse things that could happen but if we can plainly see one move as being better then the other, then why aren't we taking that line? It is one thing to understand equity in a given hand and make the right play. It is another to manipulate a pot in which by doing so you create pot odds to chase that equity. Here I believe checking behind maximizes your your long term EV in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think one reason why I feel a bet isn't that bad is that I'm used to playing with a bunch of stations at live games or soft online games at less popular, smaller sites. You say it's unlikely we get any action from worse, but I feel like that's not really true in the games I'm used to playing. I understand your reasoning, though.

DaCooler · #50 07-06-2007, 01:33 PM

Personally i dont like the flop check, and him hitting his set shows exactly why, you bet the flop here you win a nice sized pot from the A8 hand here when you hit two pair, obviously thats results oriented but you can always check behind on the turn if he comes along and play it from there if you dont improve