Nut Flush v Running Flush

[McGrain]

When do you start worrying about a flushed run?

Recently I hit the flush on the river 678 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], having raised v three limpers from the big blind with A2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I got one caller who check raised 4th and check raised for his whole stack on 5th (he had just under $80 I had $101).

I tortured myself over his possible running flush before calling - he turned over two eights for trips.

This is no limit hold em cash game, .50/1$ which is one level above what I normally play (i like an occasional half hour holiday).

Can you let a nut flush go in these circumstances?

[arealcat]

no

[knightmare_37]

A straight flush is so rare that you'll win a lot more money winning with the nut flush then you will lose against a straight flush. It will happen sometimes, but you shouldn't worry about it.

[jack21221]

If you run into a straight flush when you have the nut flush, you're destined to get stacked. It happens. Just like when you run KK into AA preflop. You're probably going to get stacked.

Just accept it, and realize that just as often, you're going to be the one doing the stacking.

[McGrain]

[ QUOTE ]
If you run into a straight flush when you have the nut flush, you're destined to get stacked. It happens. Just like when you run KK into AA preflop. You're probably going to get stacked.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I mean; I've had kings v aces twice and got away from it once (astonishigly man 3 called with AK).

I agree that the call would always be the "right" play. Unless you got busted!

[btrippi]

The few times I have seen straight flushes have been times when there were 4 suited cards on the board. This was one situation where the suited cards were 5689 of diamonds, I had a pair of 7s one of them being the diamond. I think an argument could be made for folding the ace high flush in this situation. In this situation, hitting the nuts on the turn I of course slowplayed it and did end up taking the other players stack.

You would really need X-Ray vision like Negraneau or psycic abilities to get away from this hand. And like knightmare_37 said you will win a lot more with the Ace High flush than when you lose with it to the once in 500+ game straight flush.

Peace Love and Poker,
btrippi

[PantsOnFire]

You are talking about hands where you have second nuts. In general, it is fairly difficult to lay down the second nuts unless you have some sort of super reading ability. The simple fact is that most of the time, the second nuts is the best hand.

However, not all second nuts are equal. Here are some of my examples:

Hole Cards --- Board

1. K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] --- N/A
2. A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] --- 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx
3. 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] --- 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
4. A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] --- A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
5. 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] --- 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] x

These are some examples off the top of my head where you have the second nuts. But the nuts is so unlikely, that you simply can't lay down.

1. If you are in a preflop war with KK, there is every chance you could be against QQ or AK as AA. As a matter of fact AK can be make a lot more ways than a PP.

2. You have the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] so the only straight flush is exactly two cards. You are much more likely against a K high flush than that exact straight flush.

3. The only hands to beat you are exactly the two remaining sixes or a straight flush. Now figure how many hands that you do beat and you'll see it's hugely more likely that you win here.

4. Alright, this one is a little extreme but how can you fold to a single card that can beat you? You'd have to be pretty darn sure right?

5. If you opponent has two jacks here, well that's the way she goes. Anyone who folds this....wft?

There are some second nuts however that can be tossed away. Having the nut straight on a three flush board is an example. Having the old K high straight, especially on a 4 flush board. Folding these hands would take good reads, not extrordinary ones.

And frankly, at lower levels a case could be made to never lay these down as well.

[pzhon]

It's bad advice to say that you should never fold the second nuts or even to slow down with them. You can make KK unprofitable by paying off AA more than you win from weaker hands. In your case, though, you had an easy call.

You have to worry about a straightflush when you have the second nuts when it is unlikely your opponent would play that way with a weaker hand. In your case, your opponent would have played that way with a lower flush, too, and possibly a straight. These are much more likely than straightflushes, so you should be happy to call.

You have to worry about straightflushes in Omaha, where decent players know that a king-high flush is not worth much. You have to worry (in Omaha) when the top card pairs and you have quads, and your opponent knows not to play an underboat strongly, e.g., you have A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the board is A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. A player with KKxy (kings full) should be afraid that someone would have aces full.

You have to worry about straightflushes in Hold'em when there are 4 cards to a straightflush on the board. In general, don't get too excited about a hand which can be beaten by one card.

In general, to worry about a 2 card straightflush, the stacks need to be pretty deep, both in relation to the pot and in absolute terms. If the pot is 2 BB, and your opponent pushes for 100 BB, they probably are just tired of having chips in front of them. If the pot is 2 BB, and your opponent pushes for 2000 BB, watch out.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I fold here exactly never.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you run into a straight flush when you have the nut flush, you're destined to get stacked. It happens. Just like when you run KK into AA preflop. You're probably going to get stacked.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I mean; I've had kings v aces twice and got away from it once (astonishigly man 3 called with AK).

Dan Harrington has said that he's not smart enough to fold KK preflop no matter what the action. That's good enough for me. I've said many times, if I ever fold KK preflop, take me out and shoot me. If the opponent has AA, that's life.

I agree that the call would always be the "right" play. Unless you got busted!

[/ QUOTE ]

No. Its the right play even if you get busted. The result of the hand is irrelevant to whether the play is right or wrong.