KK preflop/flop play...deep stack 25/50 live nyc... - Page 3

aislephive · #21 07-01-2007, 02:13 AM

Just something to keep in mind, we're be getting a bit over 3-1 on a call if button shoved over our 5 bet, so I don't think folding is an option (considering we're 4-1 dog against AA) at that point. Honestly I really hate your 5 bet if you're folding to a shove, or if you think your 5 bet is going to fold out everything but AA. You know what I mean?

Also, is this a full table or shorthanded? I think that changes the dynamics of the hand quite a bit.

I really don't think postflop is that interesting considering we have less than a half pot sized bet left here, although I suppose it does get tricky on an Axx or Qxx flop. Still, with the history of him calling your 4 bet with AQ and then he saw you double barrell in a reraised pot before so I doubt he gives you much credit, and therefore will committ with weaker hands than normal against you.

On a Qxx flop, I think your only moves are shoving or check/folding, personally. Can you really expect him to even have a hand to bluff with, let alone follow through with it this deep? I don't think so, and I'd probably shove here,

Axx is interesting, but I'd probably just check it and hope to see a showdown. I doubt he would turn QQ/JJ into a bluff, as I just don't think he'll think advanced enough to do that.

Low card flop seems like a pretty easy shove to me, I guess you can check call if you think he'll bluff at it. Either way I'm not folding now given how you got here.

Personally I would have just called the 4 bet from MP, but that does put us into some really tricky spots postflop. I also might consider folding with the right read. You just have to wonder how often button is committing with less than AA for 550bbs. I honestly hate your 5 bet with a standard image against most reasonable opponents this deep, you're just asking to lose the maximum against AA and win the minimum against hands you beat like QQ/JJ/AK.

breitling996 · #22 07-01-2007, 06:16 AM

how can this guy not have AA here... the chances he doesnt have to be in the single digit percentile range... obv check on the flop..

dasch · #23 07-01-2007, 10:40 AM

Looks to me like after MP raised BTN saw something in your actions to make him believe you were going to call or more likely raise and he wanted to keep you in. Your 4 bet clearly put you on AA or KK and if he came over the top all-in wouldn't you 100% put him on AA and possibly fold? I think he was going to take a shot that you weren't going to flop a set and either get the last 13k if you didn't and possibly save 13k if you did.(that would also mean that he MIGHT lay down AA vs AA with a Kxx flop)

I think he had AA and although a little risky I like the play.

dlpnyc21 · #24 07-01-2007, 05:48 PM

I have KcKx. The BTN just called my 10k extra 4-bet. I have 13k back. Flop comes out Ac10c4x.

I check, as was my plan. The button thinks for a long while, and actually looks confused. He bets 5k.

Your action now? Or do you just open shove this flop and fold out QQ/JJ?

TheWorstPlayer · #25 07-01-2007, 05:52 PM

i would have bet blind - but now i guess fold? why would he bet QQ/JJ here?

iRock · #26 07-01-2007, 06:04 PM

I don't see how villain could have AA. If he was slowplaying AA to get all this extra value out of it, why would he then put out a bet when he hits top set? is he afraid of KQc? I don't see how he can have AA here unless he's schizophrenic.

#27 07-01-2007, 10:42 PM

westhoff · #28 07-02-2007, 09:39 AM

I just wanted to say again how much I love your posts dlp. As a slight winner in lower stakes I put him on QQ with 90% certainty.

swissarmy · #29 07-02-2007, 11:44 AM

You say you wanted to check flop to get a read etc. Do you feel you can pick up that much in physical tells to check for this reason? You said he looked confused. What does this mean to you?

I like betting blind here since I don't just like checking the flop. You have so much in the middle and you don't have enough left to be able to get away from a feeler bet etc. I just don't see what a check does for you. A blind all in says you have AA or KK. When a A high flop comes he may actually fold AK or AQ to your blind all in (maybe he still calls most of the time but you still make him think hard). Even if you had AA I think you should bet the flop since you hope he has AK and you can get more value out of it. If the flop is rags why would you want to give him a free card to hit an A if he does have AK or AQ? If the flop is rags why give him a chance to hit a straight or trips w QQ? I think you want to make him pay here. If he has AA that sucks but I don't see how check folding this situation is profitable in the long run unless you have some dead read on the guy.

I think it is most likely he has QQ or AK in that order. AA would be very tricky and risky but maybe he is like that. If you think its ~45/45/10% for QQ/AK/AA then i think you have to throw it in here. I also agree with the poster who said that if he had AA why would he bet this flop considering his pre flop play.

IShearSheep · #30 07-02-2007, 04:28 PM

Wow, I thought preflop was sick for you. But I think the flop is even sicker. Of course it had an ace in it what else. I think you played the flop perfectly especially for this flop. I think if it contained anything other than an ace or a queen you should have shoved but since it contained an ace perfect. For those saying you should bet this flop or shove it-no way. If he has an ace he is calling EVERY time and if he has qq he will probably fold this a bunch I assume. But checking to him with qq I think he fires enough to warrant giving him a free card with only 2 outs especially if he thinks he can push you off of kk.

Given the way this hand has played I don't see how you can fold this. Given that an ace flopped there are 3 combos of aa he could have and 6 combos of ak and 6 combos of qq. I am pretty certain you think he has one of these hands as does everybody else. I personally think its about 2 to 1 his hand contains an ace based on his flop bet(I think the small bet implies an ace more than qq), but even if you end up all in you are getting laid way better than that. Given your history with him I think you just shove at this point because I don't think he lays down qq at this point if he has it and if he has an ace ehhhh. Also, for those saying why would villain bet this flop if he had aa, why would he not? The pot has 32k in it and if he has aa what is he suppose to do check it down and hope his opponent doesn't catch runner runner straight or flush.