Did I learn so much that I forgot how to play?

[btrippi]

Hey tmcdmck:

Most people I come accross in SnG's would probably classify me as a really tight player. I play about 20-25 percent of all hands, and usually drop bombs into the pot when I connect. This actually does seem to pay off in the low limits, but trying to keep accumulating and battling the blinds through inflection points that seem to be getting me. Changing gears I guess you could say.

When I didn't know anything I would just play straight through not altering my strategy, just playing when I thought I had the best hand, and that seemed to work too. Not worring about what zone my M has fallen to was easier, but is clearly not optimal poker. I also noticed that the times that I finish very high in SnG's are times where I have been in the top three in chips for most of the game.

I think I know what kind of poker I need to get back to, but now there are just a lot more things to think about and a lot more tools at my disposal, so of course I am bound to mess it up a lot, but now, with 2+2 and it's incredible wealth of knowledge I am liking my chances a lot better now.

Peace Love and Poker,
btrippi

[tmcdmck]

There is part of the problem. 20-25% of hands at a 10 person table does not even approach tight. 5-10% is tight. I used to lose vast amounts of money in sitngos, and am now consistently profitable, and the only real change in my play was tightening up preflop; 20-25% of hands is reasonabley loose even in a cash game, in the early stages of a sitngo it is a leak, unless your post flop play is excellent, and even then it is probably sub-optimal.

[btrippi]

tmcdmck:

i thought about what you said for a while, typed out a two paragraphs, and then realized that you are definately right. Another leak discovered. So I have some questions then. When do you usually start to loosen up your game? Is it similar a manner similar to the way Harrington describes it with the Inflection Points and the gradual widening of playable card selection?

Also post break play in a 45 person SnG is pretty nasty. Seems like there are all-ins every hand, and any two cards could be in someones hand all the time. Any advice on trying to navigate these waters? Again theory would say playing tight would be the most advantageous way to play against highly aggressive players, but at this point in the SnG you also have the rising blinds to deal with. At this point in the tourney, what will your goals be? How would you be trying to gain chips? Thanks for any help

btrippi

[mutiger91]

I don't play the 45 person SNGs, but I play some live tournaments that probably run the same way. I usually like to be up to 2-3 times my original chips by the break. People generally play tight early and it's easier to steal some pots, but mostly I'm looking for good hands and I play them very aggressively. If you have enough of a stack when things start to get crazy, you can comfortably play with good (but not spectacular) hands, because you know people have to start pushing hands that are less than premium. It's their tounament on the line and not yours.

If I find myself short-stacked instead, I try to push decent hands at pots that are not yet open (i.e. no betting into them yet). Ultimately, you need to double up, but if not, you need to steal blinds to stay alive. Reread Harrington on inflection points.

[MightyA6]

[ QUOTE ]
People generally play tight early and it's easier to steal some pots, but mostly I'm looking for good hands and I play them very aggressively. If you have enough of a stack when things start to get crazy, you can comfortably play with good (but not spectacular) hands, because you know people have to start pushing hands that are less than premium. It's their tounament on the line and not yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with everything except that people are tight. But I play low stakes.

[TheSauce]

[ QUOTE ]
too long didn't read, wall of text.

[/ QUOTE ]

could a mod ban this guy already? God knows we'll miss his expert and productive input but I mean seriously, who actually trolls the BEGINNERS forum???


To the OP: Others may have said it but i would frequent the STT Strategy forums. I guarantee they can turn you in to a profitable player if you read, post/ critique hands and situations. I am not a SNG expert but it seems the really good players have the skill of adjusting their game as the blinds increase and the bubble approaches (tight early/ looser late for example). Best of luck and keep us updated on your progress.

[tmcdmck]

Obviously Harrington is an excellent player whose advice is worth listening to. The only caveat i would give is that his advice assumes a higher level of play in the opposition relative to what you would find in the very cheap sitngos. Against lower level players you can afford to play tighter longer, as you are more likely to get paid off with a good hand. I usually start to properly switch gears once the bb is about 5 times what it started as. once it is 10x what it started as i am now properly aggressive.

As to the all in fest you refer to, I am afraid it is actually a fairly logical play once the blinds get very large, and is probably something to incorporate yourself. The key in being succesful is to try to be the person shoving, and to remember that pocket pairs and aces shoot up in value, suited cards and connectors shoot down. I would recommend trying to call only with 99 - AA, AJ-AK, and even then, I would be careful with the lower end of that range, only calling if i know the other player shoves loosely. As to shoving, it is VERY positional. Instead of writing you an essay on the subject though, I will recommend downloading the (free) trial version of sitngo wizaard (google it). It has a "test" section which should give you an idea of how loosely you should be shoving/ calling. Be careful to note how tight/ loose it says each hypothetical player is though! Also be aware that when playing donks, you can tighten up, as they will often kill themselves before the blinds kill you!

[Poker Clif]

[ QUOTE ]
There is part of the problem. 20-25% of hands at a 10 person table does not even approach tight. 5-10% is tight. I used to lose vast amounts of money in sitngos, and am now consistently profitable, and the only real change in my play was tightening up preflop; 20-25% of hands is reasonabley loose even in a cash game, in the early stages of a sitngo it is a leak, unless your post flop play is excellent, and even then it is probably sub-optimal.

[/ QUOTE ]

20% see-the-flop isn't always too loose.

In "Small Stakes Hold 'em: Winning Big With Expert Play, Miller Sklansky and Malmuth advocate playing many more hands with an average of 6 or more players seeing the flop. For example, they advocate playing any pocket pair from any position, since the implied odds of a flopping a set with a bunch of callers are so high. They advocate playing a lot of suited cards, in late position all the way down to A2 and K2, for the same reason.


I actually tried this in a micro sit-n-go after all I saw 7 see the first two flops. I was the monster chip leader after about five hands.

Of course, once players start going out, this doesn't work any more, because there aren't 6 people to see the flop.