Is This The Correct Spot to Push?

[W3rdy303]

1/2 NL homegame, we usually start out pretty short-stacked, and it builds up as the night progresses...8 Players. The majority of players are LAG.

Stack sizes:
UTG: $200
UTG+1:$75
UTG+2:$75
UTG+3: $150
Hero (CO): $80
Button: $100
SB: $65
BB: $75

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with JdKh
UTG Folds, Utg+1 Folds, UTG +2 folds, UTG +3 Limps, Hero Raises to $10, Button Calls, SB Calls, BB Calls, UTG+3 Calls.

Flop: Ts Qs 3d ($50, 5 players)
SB Checks, BB Checks, UTG +3 Checks, Hero Raises All-In $70


Was this the correct play here?
What would you do differently?

[4_2_it]

Check flop and shove over a button bet to maximize pot size; otherwise check for the free card. I guess shoving isn't horrible since you are a shortie if you know guys can lay down a weak Q here, but checking might get more $ in the pot to help justify stacking off.

edit -- Maybe a short stack specialist can chime in, but I am not sure how good a play it is to raise KJo in this spot.

[W3rdy303]

Without a queen, all of these players fold unless they have the spade draw...

So, with that kind of fold equity, plus a winning hand if a King, 9, or Ace hits, I felt the push was appropriate...I could of also taken down a nice pot with King High if one LAG decided to call with 2 small spades...

Thanks for the response, anyone else feel free to comment

[Wolfram]

I'd be very cautious estimating your fold equity in a live game. Usually there isn't any. You'll get called by a ten, any spade draw and probably AJ too.

And just think about this: with 4 other players in there, what are the chances that none of them has a queen?

I like 4_2's plan:
Checking and hope that button will put a small bet out there. Hope that everybody calls, you get a nice and juicy pot to either call for very good implied odds or just push and get a ton of dead money while having 11-14 outs.

If btn checks behind we get a free card which isn't bad either.

[ QUOTE ]
I could of also taken down a nice pot with King High if one LAG decided to call with 2 small spades...


[/ QUOTE ]
You aren't a favorite vs 2 small spades:

Board: Ts Qs 3d

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.182% 48.18% 00.00% 477 0.00 { KdJh }
Hand 1: 51.818% 51.82% 00.00% 513 0.00 { 5s4s }

[W3rdy303]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd be very cautious estimating your fold equity in a live game. Usually there isn't any. You'll get called by a ten, any spade draw and probably AJ too.

And just think about this: with 4 other players in there, what are the chances that none of them has a queen?

I like 4_2's plan:
Checking and hope that button will put a small bet out there. Hope that everybody calls, you get a nice and juicy pot to either call for very good implied odds or just push and get a ton of dead money while having 11-14 outs.

If btn checks behind we get a free card which isn't bad either.

[ QUOTE ]
I could of also taken down a nice pot with King High if one LAG decided to call with 2 small spades...


[/ QUOTE ]
You aren't a favorite vs 2 small spades:

Board: Ts Qs 3d

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.182% 48.18% 00.00% 477 0.00 { KdJh }
Hand 1: 51.818% 51.82% 00.00% 513 0.00 { 5s4s }

[/ QUOTE ]

Some very sound reasoning Wolf.. Cannot argue with that. I did feel, though, that the checks from early positions with a somewhat draw-heavy board indicated a lack of a queen.. In this game, the queen usually pushes OOP with 50$ in the pot. Thus I felt I did have some fold equity, as well as a solid image on my side.

As for the small spade draw, I will happily take a 50/50 with $50+ already in the pot. So, I made the move.

It did turn out they all folded rather quickly (very surprising), but the turn was also an ace! [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Thanks for the input.

[relativity_x]

check behind to see turn.

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
I did feel, though, that the checks from early positions with a somewhat draw-heavy board indicated a lack of a queen.. In this game, the queen usually pushes OOP with 50$ in the pot. Thus I felt I did have some fold equity, as well as a solid image on my side.

[/ QUOTE ]
Given read it becomes a push. Deeper reads is why I love live games.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the small spade draw, I will happily take a 50/50 with $50+ already in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure, you'll have an edge coinflipping with some dead money. The question is if you can gain a bigger edge by checking and seeing a free turn. If it's a non-spade your hand gains huge equity vs any spade draw, but it loses equity vs any pairs/aces unless you hit.

[TheChad]

I feel nitty here, but we could very well be betting 2nd or 3rd best hand. I check behind on the flop and look for a reason to fold.

I play a lot of short-stack poker 50 or less BB in the second biggest game in my town. I'm looking for a place to get it in either PF or being at least a 2:1 favorite on the flop. I'll flip coins with big PP, but I have a huge distaste for flipping with AK and slightly less. This is essentially a spew in my game. You're probably getting called with spades, more often than not KJ, any Q, and probably AK.

Again this is a home game. (kudos for playing live btw) Things can be a lot more read-dependent. You made the correct read and took it down. nh