Bill Chen accused of collusion?

[Zinzan]

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zinzan, I don't really know how to respond to that other than "no". Frankly I would've loved to knock one of them out so I could laugh at timex.

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Fair enough, Steven. No worries.

GL to you and your horses in the WSOP! :-)

-Z

[grdred944]

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But to claim the Bill Chen did ANYTHING unacceptable or unethical is simply wrong.

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Right. What Chen, another so-called professional did was completely unethical.

[grdred944]

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There is nothing *unethical* about about Chen's move.

If Chen held 3/4 of the chips at the table, or his ability to outplay his opponent made him 3 times more likely to win, he was simply barring luck in order to garuntee his position for the exact odds in which his equity was worth at that moment.

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This is one of th the worst rationalizations to side-step an ethical argument I have ever read related to tournament poker. REGARDLESS of the floor permitting it, this is an ethical dillema that Chen seems to have given no consideration to. Getting someone to say something is permissible does not automatically grant it ethical status.

One ethical test is to ask yourself if your action (or the action you are considering) would be acceptable as the norm -- the standard mode of behavior. Chen, in his right mind, could not welcome a tournament where players simply make deals at each level and dump chips to each other.

[grdred944]

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It's sort of interesting how the folks like Shaniac that play these types of tournaments say it's not that rare an occurrence, but the people that don't are the ones getting the most indignant about it.

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'Indignant' is not the correct word. Most people have been surprisingly civil in expressing their opinions. Shane's points are noted but it does not change the ethical issue at hand. It sounds as if for some (and it has been quoted here) this is SOP and maybe that is why the TD from Harrah's said, "Fine, go ahead." It does not pass ANY ethical test though and that is the point some of us are presenting -- without being indignant.

[MLG]

zin, im pretty sure i was the on who mentioned that dutch made a hugely imappropriate move at a final table (although it had nothing to do with backing). It was the final table of the first 6-max wsop event last year. He raised, Joe Hachem moved in, i folded, the 4th player folded, and now the 5th player, the shortstack, began considering whether or not to call all-in. While he was thinking Dutch all but mucked his hand with his body langauge, acting completely disinterested and generally not bothering to disguise that he was planning on folding. it sucked, but to the best of my knowledge it didnt have anything to do with shared % and such.


I think that the best example of situations which create a conflict of intrest is a hypothetical 3 handed one, where two players share a % of each other, or one player is backed by another (think Hasan Habib and Tuan Lee at the WPT Championship a few years ago). Clearly it is in both their best interests for the 3rd player to be the next one out. While I believe there are players that would not let this effect their play (I think steve would play absolutely the same no matter what, same goes for some other people i know who back people) there is a situation present rife with cheating potential. because the backing/deal making arrangements will have a real effect on the EV of decisions. Meaning that you have to sacrifice EV for the game to remain honest. I just think that tacitly allowing situations like that to arise is a recipe for disaster.

That said I also feel that trading %s and backing people should be 100% allowed. I just think it should all be made public and transparent so that other people can protect themselves.

[shaniac]

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zin, im pretty sure i was the on who mentioned that dutch made a hugely imappropriate move at a final table (although it had nothing to do with backing). It was the final table of the first 6-max wsop event last year. He raised, Joe Hachem moved in, i folded, the 4th player folded, and now the 5th player, the shortstack, began considering whether or not to call all-in. While he was thinking Dutch all but mucked his hand with his body langauge, acting completely disinterested and generally not bothering to disguise that he was planning on folding. it sucked, but to the best of my knowledge it didnt have anything to do with shared % and such.

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What if he does the same thing when he has a monster (as a reverse tell or whatever)? I agree it sucks, but telegraphing your action in poker isn't illegal and it's not really related to this discussion, either. (Although I clearly agree it's lame and unethical to purposely telegraph information--essentially acting out of turn--in order to design a more +EV spot).

[MLG]

shane,
you're absolutely right, i just clarified what somebody else brought up (and attempted to make it clear that when i told the story i was in no way accusing dutch of collusion, just being lame).

[kutuz_off]

Bill Chen made a post about this situation in his livejournal.

http://billandmatt.livejournal.com/

[franco]

Not sure what the big deal is here. I have been saying for years that a sport (or event or game, whatever we call poker) that has players sitting next to other players who they fund is going to have problems like this. I saw that Linda Johnson plays in tournaments against players she later would referee on. I'm not questioning Linda's ethics or anyone colluding, but lets be realistic: players in a game or sports event should not have financial connections to other players. These kinds of questions (be they real or fake) will continue unless poker stops these arranagements.

period.

franco

[Zinzan]

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shane,
you're absolutely right, i just clarified what somebody else brought up (and attempted to make it clear that when i told the story i was in no way accusing dutch of collusion, just being lame).

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Yep, my bad for unintentionally hijacking the thread. Thanks for clarification, MLG. I'm sure it was your post from last year that I was thinking of.

-Z