2/4 B&M - I don't raise a single time with KK; standard?

[gobbledygeek]

2/4 B&M, 10 handed


UTG is a young guy who despite his straddle looks to know what he's doing, kinda TAGish.

UTG+2 seems to talk as if he knows what he's doing but is playing really loose preflop and raising junk hands in EP.

MP is a nice grandmother who earlier asked if a flush beat a full house. Playing the majority of hands for any amount of bets, she is quite passive (only raises with a great made hand).

MP1 is nice looking granddaughter who is clueless. She's also pretty passive, would need at least two pairs to raise.

CO is old tight weak.


Preflop (10 players): Hero is SB with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG straddles, fold, UTG+2 3bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, fold, CO 4bets, fold, Hero calls (forgetting that he could have 5bet due to the straddle), fold, UTG 5bets, everyone calls

Flop (6 players, 31 SB): A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls

Turn (6 players, 18.5 BB): 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls

River (4 players, 22.5 BB): 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero checks, UTG bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls

Other than preflop mistake of not 5betting (due to forgetting rule) is this standard with an A on board with so many players in a big pot? Leading flop hoping for UTG to raise seems pointless in such a big pot; even 2 outers would still almost have implied odds to continue. Could I have led the turn hoping a raise by UTG would then make it unprofitable for pocket pairs to call at this point (but an UTG raise would definitely mean I'm still behind, so...)? River an easy call getting 26.5:1?

I don't recall ever not putting a raise in with KK before but was this hand ok or was it too passive?

GcluelessnoobG

[Niediam]

Is there any chance that your hand is actually good on the river?

I'd probably still call because if I fold and I would have won I'm not going to play too well for a bit. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Turn is a little thin but I'm ok with the call. Problems are that the pot isn't quite as big as it seems when you consider rake+tip and some of them you are going to be drawing dead to AA.

[Hyperrrprank]

If you don't have enough faith to raise this up at least once (and find out where you are), I can't see having enough faith to call down twice on the later streets against a bettor and two weakish callers. The bettor could be bluffing or holding QQ or KQs, but one of those callers has an A more than 95% of the time. Fold this on the turn, your KK are just another underpair drawing to two outs.

[Frond]

Might not seem like an easy hand to get away from for you but it should be at times. One of the hardest things to do in LHE

[B_Movie_Fan]

Obviously reraise preflop, but since you got confused due to the straddle it's no big deal.

I think the only decision is whether to crying call on the river or fold getting around eleventy bazillion to one on our money. You have to be good with the kings what, 4% of the time to make that call profitable? I don't know that you ever are good that often in this situation. However, live I would probably resort to my golden rule of thinking in 2/4 thru 6/12 games: everyone really [censored] sucks. A lot. There's a chance that UTG is no good (despite OP's read) and there's also a chance that he plays KK-99 this way. I'd call.

The other streets were played fine; you were getting the correct price + implied odds to hit your 2-outer on the flop and turn.

[B_Movie_Fan]

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Fold this on the turn, your KK are just another underpair drawing to two outs.

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Uhm, no. Count the bets; he's getting 21.5:1 right now. Couple that with implied odds on the river and you have a clear-cut call.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn is a little thin but I'm ok with the call. Problems are that the pot isn't quite as big as it seems when you consider rake+tip and some of them you are going to be drawing dead to AA.

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Now this is solid reasoning, although even taking out a full BB plus tip still implies 20:1, which is closer but still almost certainly a call to hit a 23-1 shot. On the river I'd expect to make about 4 bets on average or so (obviously an approximation).

[gobbledygeek]

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Uhm, no. Count the bets; he's getting 21.5:1 right now. Couple that with implied odds on the river and you have a clear-cut call.

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Ya, I think a fold is out of the question on the turn. I was wondering if a bet could have been right here but I'm thinking that would be too aggresive.

[Harv72b]

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Could I have led the turn hoping a raise by UTG would then make it unprofitable for pocket pairs to call at this point (but an UTG raise would definitely mean I'm still behind, so...)?

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Why on Earth would you want pocket pairs to fold? For that matter, why would you want anyone to fold, unless it just so happened that UTG decided to get kooky and raise with QQ, which caused the others to fold aces (can't see either of those things happening).

As soon as that ace flops with a field that large, you're drawing. The pot is huge enough that you can draw profitably, assuming you aren't up against AA, so you draw. But since we're going on the assumption that if we spike a K we're going to win, and there are no draws possible which include a K, well...there's really no reason to try to fold out anyone.

There's also no way that I overcall that river, no matter what the pot odds. You're going to be good never with all that action & UTG leading into the field on every street. Your draw missed, so into the muck it goes.

[gobbledygeek]

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Why on Earth would you want pocket pairs to fold?

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There is a possibility that I'm ahead on the turn; any pair is getting currently getting the odds to see the river so they ain't making any mistakes by sticking around but they would be if facing 2 bets. Course it's very unlikely that UTG would raise without an A so I guess that's moot.

[gobbledygeek]

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There's also no way that I overcall that river, no matter what the pot odds. You're going to be good never with all that action & UTG leading into the field on every street. Your draw missed, so into the muck it goes.

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I used to be very particular when I made overcalls but I found that I made too many "good" folds in these situations only to find out my hand was good. This is 2/4 B&M with a gigantic pot; any pair is making this call. As for UTG, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume he's betting every street with KK-99 at least 1 in 26 times.