Stealing from the Big Blind

[Lego05]

People love to limp with 44 and then call an all-in.

[simonpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
seems useful I'm doing it all the with hands like KQo, KJs, 88+ should I do it with more hands?BTW slightly off topic but how many blinds should I have to simply steal blinds from LP?

[/ QUOTE ]

Could someone answer this?

[tewall]

Not sure exactly what you're asking. If you're asking about stealing with a standard raise, like 3xBB, I'd like to have a pretty big stack. If you have 30xBB, you can try a lot of different moves. With 15xBB or less, I tend to wait for a good time for an all-in move.

[simonpoker]

[ QUOTE ]
Not sure exactly what you're asking. If you're asking about stealing with a standard raise, like 3xBB, I'd like to have a pretty big stack. If you have 30xBB, you can try a lot of different moves. With 15xBB or less, I tend to wait for a good time for an all-in move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks that was what I was asking.Can I steal with smaller stack if I have marginal hang e.g. low PP ?

[tewall]

Conventional wisdom is when a standard raise would be about 30% of your stack, it's better to just go all in. That translates to 10 x BB against the blinds. In other words, if your stack is 10 x BB or smaller, you're better off just going all-in, rather than making a smaller raise.

Whether or not pushing is a good play or not depends upon your stack size, the stack size of your opponents, your position and the calling range of your opponents. So once you get down to 10 x BB, your decisions tend to be of the go/no-go variety.

[SlackerMcFly]

Table image plays a major role in any move. However, at the low levels, most people aren't paying that much attention.

Mix it up some with a min-raise p/f with hands like 57o if you have a tight image and folded everything for a while.

You don't always have to risk your entire stack by shoving from position with or w/out cards. A suspect sized bet is usually enough if you have built a tight image if it's folded to you.

With limpers ahead, 9xBB is a shove with lots of hands instead of getting cute with small raises.

[simonpoker]

But if theres 7 players left blinds are 50/100

Total chips on table 20000

I'm on the CO/BUT with KJo/98s

its folded to me.Can I raise with both hands from both seats?How big should my stack be?Its a low stake sng with no reads.

[greggg230]

I like raising with KJo from the button, since it rates to be the best hand pretty often if it's folded around to you. So, even if you do get called, you're not in terrible shape most of the time. This applies both to when you're short enough that you're pushing and deep enough that you're just raising (3-4xBB). Obv. only do this when the blinds are reasonably high.

Another factor, of course, is the stack sizes of the blinds and the calling ranges you put them on. With a hand like KJ, the move becomes better the looser they are, because then they'll be calling you with hands you dominate or are a 3:2 or 2:1 favorite over. Nonetheless, fold against a re-raise from anyone with a decent-sized stack.

Most of the time, just fold 98s. It has little value heads up in a raised pot. There are times when stack sizes and calling ranges make it a good move, but those are the exceptions.

[tewall]

Some simple math. Say there's two limpers, and the SB completes. Your in the Big Blind, blinds are 50/100, with 1500 (1400 after posting). Say you have something like Q9o. You push.

Assuming the three opponents have a calling range of top 20% (hands like A3s, A8o, J9s, QJo), there's a 50% chance the push will be folded around, which increases your stack from 1400 to 1800, about 40%. The half of the time you're called, you'll win about 1/3 of the time with Q9o, which would increase your stack to 3200. 1/6 of 3200 is about 530. 1/2 of 1800 is 900. So this looks like a small loss.

In the actual situation which came up in my game, the small blind folded, so the chances of calling would only be about 36%, assuming both opponents would call with top 20% hands. That comes out to .64 * 1800 + 1/6 * 3200 = 1686.

If you assume a calling range of top 10% hands (hands like A9o, QTs, AJo), the play would be +EV on the folding equity alone.

If you assume a calling range of top 20% hands, 32o will win 29% of the time, so the calculation becomes (.64 * 1800) + (.36 * .29 * 3200) = 1486.

So it looks like pushing with any 2 is +EV with any two, given you have two limpers and the small blind folds.

Given the small blind completes, you need a decent hand to make the play profitable. From playing around with it a bit, it looks like the cut off line is around QJo/QTo.

Something like ATo should easily be unexploitable (+EV, regardless of what range you put your opponents on).

Something that would need to be considered is the probability of being against a top 20% hand. Since the players have acted, we have more information than that they have a random hand. On the one hand, given they chose to enter the pot at all, would argue that they have a better than normal chance of having a top 20% hand. On the other, the fact that they limped instead of raising makes it less likely they have a strong hand, so these factors counterbalance each other to some extent.

[Foldem78]

Tewall-

Part of the reason why this works so well is because of the fold equity and the fact that if you are called...at worst..you're 50/50...on average this play is probably more like 65/35 (I haven't done any math so this is just a guess)..

When you lower the calling standards to ATC or even QT/QTo as you suggest..now, a larger percentage of the time you end up being dominated yourself..also, you'll just simply not win as many showdowns..(unless u tighten up)

I've considered pushing wider in this situation but, oftentimes the people you're pulling this on can be exploited moreso in other spots...eg blind vs. blind, pwn-ing bubble, scenarios come to mind right off the top..

But if it works for you..keep doing it.