2/4 stud hi/lo hand...Thoughts on an advanced play

[dmesey]

The table is been seemingly tight early on and I thought this was a good time to raise on 4th so that I could be a favorite for the high hand and be representing the low at the same time if i got it heads up. Should I have come in for a double raise on 3rd to represent the A? Thoughts on hand please, thanks.

7 Card Stud High-Low ($2/$4), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $1 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.88 SB)

Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___calls
Seat 4: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___raises

4th Street - (5.88 SB)

Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___raises
Seat 2: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks___folds

5th Street - (4.94 BB)

Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (6.94 BB)

Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

River - (8.94 BB)

Hero: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 6: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___checks

Total pot: (8.94 BB)

[cgrohman]

I fold third. Is that weak?

[dmesey]

I use to fold there, but after reading up on some stud material I have come across some points that you should maybe raise there on 3rd. Although I cant see folding on 3rd being a bad play either. I have been playing tight and just thought it was a good time to put in a play. Just noticed something and it worked.

[Alchemist]

With the Ace and the 5 catching bad, I'd probably just lead out on 4th. It's a good time to try and get rid of some of these guys. I play the rest the same.

[Andy B]

With two clubs gone, third is a fold. I'd lean towards playing this in high-only, and I play it in stud/8 with one club gone. With three Aces showing, no one is going to believe that you have the fourth one.

I don't understand the check-raise on fourth. I can understand betting out, and I can understand checking and calling, but with the check-raise, you're getting more money in there with a pretty weak hand. Yes, you got a couple people to fold, but they might well have been folding anyway.

The rest of it looks fine. I will sometimes bet on similar rivers in the hopes that the other guy will fold a small pair that beats mine. In this case, some of the likely small pairs are ones you beat anyway. He's not folding two pair, and he's not folding any low.

[dmesey]

I understand folding on 3rd because 2 clubs were gone. But on 4th I check raised because im pretty sure all of these players call a single raise besides the first person that folded to a single raise which was pretty solid. Against that opponent I dont consider my hand weak at all. My A high against him was the best hand and i am a favorite for the high hand with back door clubs. Also, if I hit good and he hits bad on 5th then i could win it all right there. That did happen but he was stubborn and still called. I have been reading SS2 and Todd Brunson talks about a very similar situation as mine except he put a double bet in on 3rd. He also says that A high hands with potential high and low possibilities, you immediately want to eliminate all other hitchhikers going low and high to get it Heads up because he says that often A high will be good enough for the high and 5th worked out great but he decided to make some loose calls. It is a high variance play, but I check on 4th to eliminate everyone behind me because the 2/4 level people almost always call on 4th to a single bet.

[SweetLuckyMe]

On 3rd there were 2 dead clubs, 2 dead aces, a dead 5 and a dead 9. The hand simply has very little value. It's limpable, hoping to catch perfect on 4th, but to call a 3rd st. raise, or re-raise yourself is quite unproductive. A live junk hand like TT3 would have more value in this spot.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if I hit good and he hits bad on 5th then i could win it all right there. That did happen but he was stubborn and still called.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. This is $2/4. I wouldn't be counting on the other guy to play well. You need to play well. That includes mucking this dog on third and not putting in unnecessary action on fourth. Save the "advanced" Todd Brunson moves for the $200/400 game.

[templar999]

Calling is pretty mediocre on 3rd, but defendable if you're capable of outmanuevering your opponents later; raising is really bad. Not only are the clubs gone, but you have three dead cards out there.

I don't get the CR on fourth. And I'm pretty sure Todd's not talking about two backdoor draws on fourth street in the example you gave.

My question: why didnt you bet the river?