Would it ever be wise to lay down pocket aces (A,A) pre-flop ?!!?

[Krow]

I hope that got your attention. Also note that this is purely theoretical and not any advice I would give anyone or maybe even follow because I have never seen the scenario come up.

With that said I will state a few truths and then go into the scenario.

I hope that you would agree that calling an all-in in too many coinflips is dumb and risky business for someone trying to make money in the game, this is especilly true for someone trying to stay alive in tournaments. (Say you get involved with even 2-coinflips the better chances you are to lose and get knocked out even if the scenario was 60/40 the more you risk and all-in even at those better odds the greater chances of being knocked out.) Hopefully you'll agree on that unless you just like to gamble; then that would make you a gambler and not a poker player; note that normally applies to tournament logic as a professional with a large bankroll probably would push even a 2% edge (sometimes) (52/48) because in the long-run it would be profitable.

Then I would say that it is smart to never make any type of preflop call when the odds are against you, even the dumbest player on the planet could agree too that. Such as if you are a 40/60 against. Obvious right.

Now to set up the scenario say you are involved in a large tournament and you look down and see pocket aces (AA). Everyone at the full table (9-players) is about even stack. Most players are weak the overestimate too many hands ect. And you act last.

Player 1: raises about half of his stack.
Player 2: re-raises all-in
Player 3: FOLD
Player 4: goes all-in
Player 5: also goes all-in
Player 6: all-in (he is the chip leader but only slight)
Player 7: also goes all in.
Player 8: FOLD
You(A,A): [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

The scenario is this 5 players before you have gone all in essentialy no one can bet another out of this pot it will all be seen down to the river. And there is a stron possibility that the person who made the initial bet will also call and go all in.

You may think that this scenario is a dream come true it will pit 6-players against your ?unbreakable? pocket aces.

But if you think about this your odds of winning are probably something like 40-43% maybe worse putting you as an underdog. . . and underdog with aces immpossible right. Nope. Think of it this way with everyone all-in like this all 7 of will see it to the river, against any one player you have then destroyed but collectivly they are legion because in this secnario you will get knocked out by any one of them pitting six hands against one. Even if you have two dominated that means it pits a player who will only have a pair of aces against 4-players who are live against you and two who probably can out-draw you still. This leaves the only way you can win is with only a pair of aces or the very slim possibility for you to get four to the flush to win and even rarer is four to the straight because there may be less cards out for the high end of the straight. ! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] ! If this logic still confuses you play with an odds claculator pre-flop.

With all of this in mind I ask again, would it ever be wise to fold aces pre-flop?

[Krow]

I posted this to get people to think and I hope it does, by the way I don't think you should ever lay down aces pre-flop, ever. But I do want to know what you think and why, I have my reasons why, but I want to hear yours. For and against laying down aces pre-flop. I am actually against, but I want to hear you responses.

[JavaNut]

Well against 7 other opponents with AA you may be 25% to have a huge stack and 75% to be out. Just rough numbers of the top of my head.

So what you need to ask yourself is what is important in this situation? Will winning the hand make you 'sure' of winning a big price say $400, while folding may just give a 50/50 shot of a low price say $25, then it is $100 in EV against $12 pricewise, which would be a clear call. On the other hand it might be that you will be 50/50 for getting $20 against being sure of $10, then it is $5 against $10 and a clear fold.

Then again it could be a satelite, where all prices are the same, where you will be in the prices if you fold, but risk being out if you call, then it is a certain fold.

So this is not any different than any other situation in tournament play, where the price money governs what you do not the stack money, so to speak.

[soon2bepro]

Read tournament poker by david sklansky, he makes a better example of when you must fold AA preflop or you're an idiot.

I think it goes something like:

Final table, 4 players left. 1st prize is 10 million, second prize is 4 million, third prize is 1 million, fourth prize is 400k.

The three big stacks have 10 million in chips each, and you have a measly 50k. Blinds are 10k/20k with 1k antes.

You're in the BB with AA. The other three players go all in in front of you. If you don't fold here you're just plain dumb.

In cash games, of course, or in a tournament where the only goal you have is to finish first as opposed to winning the most money, you never fold AA preflop.

[skitzo444]

What if you were playing in a sataliete where the final 9 all got the same $1000 prize. There are 10 players left and 5 people have the same chips there are 2 huge stacks and 3 people that will be blinded out in the next orbit. If you have an average stack why even play?

[ApeAttack]

NEVER FOLD AA PREFLOP UNLESS UNDER VERY EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES.

It may be correct to fold AA preflop if you are...
(1) in a satellite at the bubble (and even here only under extreme circumstances)
(2) if you are near the end of the tourney, the payouts increase exponentially, 2+ players are all-in and by winning the hand you only barely improve your chances of winning the entire tourney.

In your scenario it seems that you are in the middle of a tournament. Never fold AA here.

You forget that while you may be less than a 50% favorite here against 4 other people, you will increase your stack by 5x if you win (assuming everyone starts with the same amount of chips). This is not a normal coinflip situation in which you only double your stack if you win. You cannot pass such opportunites up.

Never fold AA preflop in a cash game. There is no reason you should ever do this.

[Krow]

In this scenario the Sklansky where "you have to fold AAs" I completely understand this logic given the prize pool payout, and with them this will unless a tie between will bring you from winning 400 thousand to 4 millon and while calling and winning it puts you in the same pool for winning with only slightly more chips relative to stacks. but also adds to the changes of getting knocked out leaving you with only 400K. This is a very good example of when to fold.

But I'll just say that in "my above scenario" I think you still must call though you may lose if you win you'll be getting 5.5 to 1 meaning that you only need to win 20 percent of the time, (this logic is much more relevant in cash games as in a tournament when you get knocked out your out.) however if you win this will put you with a very dominate stack in the tournament one would assume where if you fold, one of those remaining players will be a dominant stack in the tournament against you they would have about 6 times more chips than you if you fold. So there is my arguement to call with AA preflop, however in this example I took the possible prize pool out of the scenario. That is my logic!

[ApeAttack]

[ QUOTE ]
I posted this to get people to think and I hope it does, by the way I don't think you should ever lay down aces pre-flop, ever. But I do want to know what you think and why, I have my reasons why, but I want to hear yours. For and against laying down aces pre-flop. I am actually against, but I want to hear you responses.

[/ QUOTE ]

This topic has been done to death in the past. Did you use the 'search' function? One of the forums has this topic in the FAQ section.

[Krow]

[ QUOTE ]
NEVER FOLD AA PREFLOP UNLESS UNDER VERY EXTREME CIRCUMSTANCES.


You forget that while you may be less than a 50% favorite here against 4 other people, you will increase your stack by 5x if you win (assuming everyone starts with the same amount of chips). This is not a normal coinflip situation in which you only double your stack if you win. You cannot pass such opportunites up.
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(Also I didn't forget anything, that is my argument for calling in that scenario. I made the post to raise a question and see what other peoples reasoning, I am against folding aces in that scenario so please read. I proposed a question and didn't show my side until now, but thank you for arguing the point.) <font color="black"> </font>

[Krow]

Sorry I am new to these forums. So if it has been "done to death" I wasn't aware, but I will do a search now and read the other forum.