Which Of These Three Starements Do You Reject? (Abortion Related)

[PairTheBoard]

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Logically you must pick at least one to reject.


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Why? Why must the rejection be all or nothing?

I have about a 50% rejection level for #1. About a 85% rejection level for #2. And about a 5% rejection level for #3.


PairTheBoard

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I totally accept that answer. In fact it is close to mine. But it strays from the point. Because in real life many people won't admit that they do this. Especially in regards to #2

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The thing is, this is probabably the way most people actually come to determine their position on the issues. They apply an intuitive analogue type processing to these various inclinations. Out of that they come to decisions on how to act. Their decisions must be all or nothing. Either they vote yes or no. Either they speak out against the bombings or they don't. They have arrived at their decisions in a rational way. It works.

Now you claim they should examine their decisions based on the unrealistic model of all or nothing denials of certain propositions. The model is not even realistic for how you think. Then you condemn them because they cannot justify their decisions according to a model neither you nor they employ to arrive at their decisions. You aren't making any sense.

PairTheBoard

[Phil153]

If fetuses are full human beings than bombing abortion clinics is not morally wrong under most moral systems.

[David Sklansky]

But some people DO subscribe to those positions 100%. Or at least SAY they do. Especially the one about fetuses being human beings.

[PairTheBoard]

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But some people DO subscribe to those positions 100%. Or at least SAY they do. Especially the one about fetuses being human beings.

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"Saying" they do amounts to the kind of Decision to Act that I was talking about. They commit to that position like they would casting a vote. What's behind the vote may be very mixed. But at some point they have to pull the lever. Especially if they're in politics.

PairTheBoard

[goofball]

Maybe your hospital in #1 should lure in street orphans, then kill them.

[2OuterJitsu]

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But some people DO subscribe to those positions 100%. Or at least SAY they do. Especially the one about fetuses being human beings.

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Why aren’t fetuses human beings?

BTW I reject 1&3.

[kerowo]

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But some people DO subscribe to those positions 100%. Or at least SAY they do. Especially the one about fetuses being human beings.

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Why aren’t fetuses human beings?

BTW I reject 1&3.

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Because then abortion would be murder.

A more interesting question is when do they become human beings.

[goodgrief]

At a certain state, a fetus is not a human being because it is incapable of surviving outside of my body. It drinks my blood and eats my flesh. As I am not Jesus, I object to this without my consent. I don't fully understand why men care about abortion. They wouldn't tolerate the Alien growing in their abdomens without their consent, not for a moment. But since it can't happen to them, suddenly it is not so bad for some outside lifeform to live off of somebody else's body.

I don't think the male opinion on abortion is remotely relevant, be you Sklansky, be you Albert Einstein for that matter. What you guys are missing about the story of Mary and Jesus is that the angel came to Mary and informed her. She did have a choice. If she had said "eff no," then the angel would have gone to somebody else. My reading of it anyway. For all we know, the angel of God inquired of lots of women if they wanted to carry the son of God and got a good horse laugh, and that's why he was reduced to asking this of a starry-eyed 14 year old to begin with.

As for Sklansky's questions, abortion isn't about logic and reason. It is about the visceral horror of having an unwanted life form, frequently the child of your rapist or the child of somebody you now hate and regret sleeping with, growing in your very body. It is quite simply intolerable, in the way that allowing a cancer cell free reign to grow in your body is intolerable. Making excuses for male creeps who bomb abortion clinics, on the grounds that they are logically consistent, is horsehockey. Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. You are not a little mind. You are better than this.





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But some people DO subscribe to those positions 100%. Or at least SAY they do. Especially the one about fetuses being human beings.

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Why aren’t fetuses human beings?

BTW I reject 1&3.

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[Phil153]

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At a certain state, a fetus is not a human being because it is incapable of surviving outside of my body. It drinks my blood and eats my flesh. As I am not Jesus, I object to this without my consent.

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This idea has some problems. Firstly, it assumes that you have the right to do whatever you please with your body. Medicine does not allow self harm, and society does allow suicide or euthanasia, yet we allow the killing of something which isn't actually your body at all.

Secondly, dependency is a slippery slope. A baby requires constant care, involving a significant part of your time and resources, and is essentially helpless. Yet, society forces you to care for it, even against your will, and punishes you if you kill it, even though it totally dependent on you.

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I don't think the male opinion on abortion is remotely relevant

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That's like saying that the white opinion on Tutsi-Hutu genocide is not remotely relevant. If society accepts that the baby is a legitimate third party, then what you (or women) think has no bearing on laws. And really, it's not like pregnancy is unexpected or unavoidable, except in cases of rape where abortion is usually allowed under any system. You claim control over your body then claim no responsibility when you create a life then decide to kill it.

BTW I am pro abortion, but find your claims of absolute rights to be without merit.

[goodgrief]

Whoa, dude, a fetus is not a baby, and if you think a fetus is a baby, as many men do, as I say, get back to me when you've carried the baby in your body for 9 months and then strained it out through your genitals.