Hellmuth's Place?

[ZBTHorton]

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where did all the morons and their favorite online pros finish if it was such a easy field? If it is not about where they finished then do not say helmuth went through a donkey field. Your online guys had the same opportunity so sorry if they could not take advantage.

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Nobody ever said Hellmuth wasn't a good player. I just said that the field in the 1500 wasn't a hard field. It was still massive, and still give Phil tons of credit for making it deep.

But trying to argue that the 1500 field wasn't easy is pretty ridiculous. It was donktastic, why do you think all the pros are playing in the events? lol

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they are playing for bracelets, ivey a pro who never plays wpt pre lim events is playing these pre lim for bracelets, not because it is easy

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Sigh. Sorry, no.

Most people couldn't give a crap about bracelets. They want money. WSOP events present the best chance to make money.

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most people are you guys that have no money, you think people like helmuth, brunson, ivey are playing to win money? they rather be in the cash games if they wanted money

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Hellmuth wouldn't. He sucks at cash games. This has been pretty obvious since he got laughed at on HSP, and every other cash game poker show he's appeared on(and lost tons of money on).

Ivey and Doyle play cash games at night. I guess you've missed the interviews with Ivey, literally hundreds of times over the years where he states that he only plays tournaments when the big cash games are not running.

The big cash games don't run at noon. They run at night. So Ivey enters the tournaments. He's stated multiple times that he'll donk off a stack in a tournament to go play cash games.

[jdblacknines]

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The big cash games don't run at noon. They run at night. So Ivey enters the tournaments. He's stated multiple times that he'll donk off a stack in a tournament to go play cash games.

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I know Phil loves cash games, but I have never heard him say he actually gives chips away to play the side games.

I don't see him being in the top 10-20 in a WSOP event at 10 PM and just dumping it all to run to a cash game.

[Todd Terry]

I’ve watched Phil play on TV and have always seen hands which I believed he played terribly. On a recent episode of Poker After Dark, Gus Hansen said that no sane player would play Phil Hellmuth’s style of play. Steve Zolotow said that Phil was great against mediocre players, but not so good against skilled professionals.

I think we should all open our eyes and realize that there is more that one way to play NLH tournaments, and that Phil, however the hell he does it (and he always says he plays very differently than everyone else), does it better than everyone else.

Additionally, perhaps many of the perceived flaws in Phil’s game are more perception than reality. The conventional wisdom is that Phil is too afraid to put all his chips in the middle, and that he makes laydowns when people play back at him when the pot odds and the opponent’s range of hands dictate a call. Thus, thinking opponent should play back at him and reraise him liberally.

In the 2K event, Phil had 99 in the blinds, reraised with it, and got called by Spiderman. The flop came 235 or 245 or something like that. Phil bet, Spiderman moved in. This is a situation where the perceived Phil Hellmuth would be expected to fold. He thought forever, and called. He was ahead, Spiderman had AJ, but Phil’s hand failed to hold up.

At the final table of the 1500 event that Phil just won, he raised with AT, Scott Clements moved all in with A5 for 740K more, I believe. This is a situation where the perceived Phil would fold – he only has AT. An Internet whiz kid would call based on pot odds and range. Phil didn’t fold, he called, and his hand held up.

I’ve heard good players describe Phil as super tight, other good players describe him as super loose. Another said he is both, and that he changes between the two frequently. What seems to be universal is that no one gives him credit for being the best. Image is critically important in this game, and Phil uses his image better than anybody. A lot of lesser players are scared to play against him. A lot of better players misperceive his game and he traps them and usually gets in with the best of it. It’s possible that he intentionally misplays hands for small amounts of chips to exploit people’s perceptions later on.

On the cash game/tournament debate, if the goal of playing poker is to make money, I suspect no one has made more money from poker (including endorsements) than Phil.

[THAY3R]

Just because someone is a great player doesn't mean he can't have huge fundamental leaks in his game. I don't think people understand just how soft live poker is, especially the WSOP.

[doc43]

Does anyone know how many WSOP events Phil has entered over the course of his career?

[NickMPK]

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Does anyone know how many WSOP events Phil has entered over the course of his career?

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This is impossible to say because there is no record that a player entered a tournament if they don't cash.

[J.C. Gloves]

Thayer vs. Hellmuth HU 4rollz! Gogogogogogo! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[mike_oxbig]

I'm confident thayer would make him live out of a cardboard box.

[Mano]

Hellmuth describing victory

Phil gives explaination of why he wins more bracelets than the high limit players:

"Alot of the high limit players give up and start playing the high limit games"

[TexRef]

Phil's done a pretty great job of building up his brand -- I don't think that anyone can deny that.

So, while his poker skills might be debated among players (obviously you have to know something about playing to get 11 bracelets) -- I do think that he is one of the smartest when it comes to capitalizing on poker.

I think that what some people don't like (and I am part of this bandwagon as well) is his ranting about other players, their bad play, how he is the best, etc., etc. I think that part of this is his marketing technique -- and part of it he truly believes.

Regardless, Hellmuth has built up a demand for his books, videos, etc. -- when players that are certainly as good and have close to his number of bracelets (Cunningham, Seidel, etc.) haven't. Maybe those players don't want to pursue that kind of limelight, product endorsements, etc. - but PH obviously does and he seems to be doing a pretty good job of it.

And, as others have pointed out, he has 11 bracelets and no one else does. Yet.