Starting Hands LHE

[rubberloon]

It seems that there are about 15 UTG/3 to 17 Button/10 good raising starting hands in LHE and from about 5 UTG/3 to 11 Button/10 good limping starting hands (loosely based on SSHE). From discussions here, it seems most money is won on very few starting hands perhaps about twenty in all.

MY QUESTION Is it worth playing the weaker limping hands, for example Kxs and small suited connectors?

Or should I forget them?

If you play as above your PFR will be 6.5% UTG and 7.4% on the button, your VP$IP from 8% to 12.2% which seems very tight.

[ottsville]

That's way too tight. Where are you coming up with these numbers?

MY QUESTION Is it worth playing the weaker limping hands, for example Kxs and small suited connectors?

Depends on the game....If you have lots of limpers, you should definitely be playing suitconns and sometimes suited gappers. Kxs where x<10 is often a toss though, but it depends on the game and your ability to get away from top pair/weak kicker type hands.

[rubberloon]

Got figures from SSHE, if include weak limping hands (speculative/junk) get VP$IPs of 12.5% UTG and 24.4% Button or 18.5% average.

Perhaps I should rephrase question:

To break even a starting hand must make 7.9 BB/100 hands, 5 BB for 10 big blinds, 2.5 BB for ten small blinds and 0.4 BB for the rake. So EV for a starting hand should be at least +0.08 (8BB/100 hands), which is where I get the good limping hand idea.

QUESTION becomes "Can you consistently make money betting starting hands with less than 0.08 EV?" Ignoring blinds.

[Niediam]

Now add in where SSH says you should isolate weak players with stuff like Axs.

Now add in hands that SSH says you should open raise with in MP or later like 88.

Now upgrade a few hands in EP that play well shorthanded like AJ.

You should be at around 12% now. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ottsville]

[ QUOTE ]


To break even a starting hand must make 7.9 BB/100 hands, 5 BB for 10 big blinds, 2.5 BB for ten small blinds and 0.4 BB for the rake. So EV for a starting hand should be at least +0.08 (8BB/100 hands), which is where I get the good limping hand idea.

QUESTION becomes "Can you consistently make money betting starting hands with less than 0.08 EV?" Ignoring blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been drinking, so I'm not sure about your math. But, if you feel confident in your math, then *theoretically* you should not play hands with less than 0.08+EV.

However what is theoretically correct may not be the case in practice. Unless you can ACCURATELY predict how many bets your opponents put in when they are behind or drawing inappropriately(or even when they are ahead), you can't determine your true EV. Hands have more(or less) EV depending on situations(until you have a large enough sample size to determine)...you might find that you can overlimp KTs at .1/.2, whereas raising it may be correct at a different level.

[uDevil]

[ QUOTE ]
Got figures from SSHE, if include weak limping hands (speculative/junk) get VP$IPs of 12.5% UTG and 24.4% Button or 18.5% average.

Perhaps I should rephrase question:

To break even a starting hand must make 7.9 BB/100 hands, 5 BB for 10 big blinds, 2.5 BB for ten small blinds and 0.4 BB for the rake. So EV for a starting hand should be at least +0.08 (8BB/100 hands), which is where I get the good limping hand idea.

QUESTION becomes "Can you consistently make money betting starting hands with less than 0.08 EV?" Ignoring blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an odd way of stating it. EV includes the cost of the blinds and rake, so you should play any hand with >0 EV. You can still make money if you dump marginally +EV hands, but there is a trade-off because if you play extremely tightly, your opponents will notice and not pay you off when you have big hands. The EV of your big hands will decrease.

An additional benefit to playing more tightly is that variance will be decreased. However, you are still paying for that through a decreased win rate.

Of course you can choose to play that way if you want to, but for the best players, Limit Hold'em is about pushing small edges to maximize winrate. If you are a winning player and have a bankroll that can handle the variance of the game, then you should play all hands that have +EV, no matter how small.

[rubberloon]

Thank you very much for your excellent helpful suggestions.
(1) Today I bought assembled and used a lawnmower with unappreciated results. (2) My exwife tossed several irreplaceable books (Lewis "Black Jacobins" Luttwak "Grand Strategy of the Roman Empire") from her garage. I'll get back later, sorry about that! But many thanks for your suggestions.

[rubberloon]

Signing off!

I done guess I'll have to run 60,000+ hands to find the answer.