theory: "the showdown tax"

[terp]

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ok. but hitting tp and firing 3 times happens way more often than once every few hundred hands imo


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obviously. the board texture in each of these combined with my kicker in hand 1 is what makes 1+2 thin.

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also, if villains do not notice, than why are you talking about meta game?


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they do notice. i'm firing a lot and on other hands too. i should have picked a different three hands, because about 80% of the time i am in these spots, i have position. being OOP and the relative unpredictability of my river action, they will not be able to both notice and exploit me given the frequency with which i currently execute these plays.

[aislephive]

Hand one is more of a bluff than a value bet against most players, don't like it at all.

I like hand 2, I think Jx will call a lot thinking Kx or air.

Hand 3 doesn't look good to me, but if the guy is a huge station and would call river with two pair I think it'd be aight.

[Worm75]

Isn't this concept somewhat similar to what Mahatma used to pull all the time. Basically pushing with the nuts and air trying to create as much pressure as he could on TAG's, because they were too weak-tight to call off there stack with mediocre holdings.

[delta k]

much ado about nothing, IMO- if you're not already doing this it just means you're not playing very well. hence the post essentially says: play better. even still i think hand 1 (since we're in position) and hand 3 are both horrible. but regardless, it's something to think about for a lot of players because it does work, when used correctly. however, like i said, i don't think these are prime examples.

[holyfield5]

hmm negative freerolls i like this concept

[tufat23]

matrix came round my house yesterday, and received some coaching. one hand i dont think i explained too well, but was basically range merging was:

Party Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$0.50/$1 Blinds
5 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

<font color="black">SB: $66.77</font>
BB: $20.00
UTG: $138.55
CO: $125.00
<font color="black">Hero (BTN): $118.75</font>

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 Players)
2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $4.00</font>, SB calls $3.50, BB folds

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($9) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $7.00</font>, SB calls $7.00

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($23) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $15.00</font>, SB calls $15.00

<font color="black">River:</font> ($53) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
SB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets all-in for $92.75</font>, SB folds

Pot Size: $145.75


this was a pure value shove, fwiw

[warbler]

right... so the first thing I "change" is how fast I play my sets. I just call as you donate your stack over 3 streets.

The second thing I change is my calling frequency... I just raise and re-raise you more on the flop with my weak made hands and good draws.

I'm not knocking the concept but won't these changes just murder you??

(I would have thought most ssnl'ers would catch on the this pretty quickly - although the dry board call down does not happen that often, usually someone loses heart)

Additionally I would love to isolate the play in PT and look at it's results I would have thought that the worse hands your folding does not make up for the better hands your paying.
BTW if there is a way to isolate an action and look it's results in PT i'd like to know. I've often wanted to look at my c-bets in isolation and also my 3-betting

[tannenj]

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Isn't this concept somewhat similar to what Mahatma used to pull all the time. Basically pushing with the nuts and air trying to create as much pressure as he could on TAG's, because they were too weak-tight to call off there stack with mediocre holdings.

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did you read the op? [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

hero has neither the nuts nor air in any of the examples.

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much ado about nothing, IMO- if you're not already doing this it just means you're not playing very well. hence the post essentially says: play better.

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all the advice ever given in every strategy forum on 2p2 essentially says, "play better." might as well eradicate ssnl, msnl, and hsnl, huh.

[Grunch]

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this was a pure value shove, fwiw

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I disagree.

[dirtytricks]

I believe this is about the same topic as Sklansky wrote about in his last book: Bluffing with a fairly good hand. You should read it!

Anyway that consept only applies when you are OOP on the river and you are not sure if you have the best hand. Then it might be better to bet since your opponent checks behind with hands he would have called a bet and bets BUT not necessarily reraises with hands that beat you.

I think this is what shpankos AK hand was all about. He didnt know if his opponent was on a missed draw or a made hand. But he felt that opponent wouldnt bluff the missed draw often enough to make check/call good. Opponent might also check behind with the exact hand he had KQ, thus I river shove is best since he would pay off a better hand anyway.

This is always tough since you never can be sure about opponents hand but some handreading helps a lot!

Hand 1: I dont understand you are OOP and can check behind. There is no more value for you here.

Hand 2: Is better, he might look you up light with QJ or even weaker if you have any 3barrel history. Betting is sure better than check/calling since he almost never bluffs in this spot. The K is a bad river card for you though.

Hand 3: Its only 2 hearts on the flop right?? Here you need some reads. Is he the kind of guy chasing two big bets with a flush draw? If not I dont hate it but you really have to put him on a hand here.