What do you guys think of this hand? - Page 2

medaugh · #11 06-08-2007, 09:59 PM

I don't mind the call preflop as the read would indicate that limper villan would shove a decent range if he is a thinking LAG, pot is ~1/3 of his stack. But since he folded who knows.
Flop you need to protect here maybe 1200-1500 range, if he raises call/ put him in etc.

Dunkman · #12 06-09-2007, 12:28 PM

I don't mind the flop check, but I reraise PF, not to protect my hand or anything like that, but I don't want him getting away from hands on the flop he would have gone AI with PF.

binions · #13 06-09-2007, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
comments about all streets appreciated, ty
this is from the late night 33 mtt, about 90 people left 27 pay, i have a pretty tight/solid image
no reads on villain, UTG+1 is rather LAG

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button (t10015)
SB (t4166)
BB (t2685)
UTG (t1940)
UTG+1 (t6847)
MP1 (t1860)
MP2 (t3480)
Hero (t11708)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t200, 1 fold, MP2 raises to t800, Hero calls t800, 3 folds, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: (t2100) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t2100) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets t1000, Hero raises to t2800, MP2 calls t1680 (All-In).

Final Pot: t7580

[/ QUOTE ]

Your play is fine if deep stacks. When initial raiser puts ~23% of his stack in preflop, the proper play is to either reraise preflop or bet the flop.

mayesie · #14 06-09-2007, 02:08 PM

You can re-raise pre-flop, and expect the villain to go all-in with you. He's probably not putting-in over 20% of his stack in the pot with nothing.

Since you decided to call, I can't say I have a problem with the flop check, given the villain's description. It can induce a bluff, and extract extra value.

icallseat3 · #15 06-09-2007, 02:53 PM

He deserved a heart after how slow you played this hand. I agree to just get him in p/f He raised 1/4 his chips I doubt he will fold. He also probably has a strong holding in this spot.

WellThatsFine · #16 06-09-2007, 04:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He deserved a heart after how slow you played this hand. I agree to just get him in p/f He raised 1/4 his chips I doubt he will fold. He also probably has a strong holding in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ] but ur forgetting about UTG+1, i played the hand preflop this way to induce a 3 bet out of him or at least to get him in the pot because i know he would easily get it all in light on the flop...i should have bet the flop like i said before i think that was my biggest mistake

WellThatsFine · #17 06-09-2007, 04:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
comments about all streets appreciated, ty
this is from the late night 33 mtt, about 90 people left 27 pay, i have a pretty tight/solid image
no reads on villain, UTG+1 is rather LAG

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button (t10015)
SB (t4166)
BB (t2685)
UTG (t1940)
UTG+1 (t6847)
MP1 (t1860)
MP2 (t3480)
Hero (t11708)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t200, 1 fold, MP2 raises to t800, Hero calls t800, 3 folds, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: (t2100) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t2100) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets t1000, Hero raises to t2800, MP2 calls t1680 (All-In).

Final Pot: t7580

[/ QUOTE ]

Your play is fine if deep stacks. When initial raiser puts ~23% of his stack in preflop, the proper play is to either reraise preflop or bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

what if the UTG+1 was in the villains seat...say i flat call as i did in this hand, given he has still about 30+bb's what would be the correct flop and turn play if it was check to me on the flop as it was in the real hand? thanks for the insight

wulfpacker21 · #18 06-09-2007, 05:00 PM

reraise preflop ... you want to be heads up w/ someone with AA and its better just to get the money into the pot b4 the flop

binions · #19 06-09-2007, 06:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
comments about all streets appreciated, ty
this is from the late night 33 mtt, about 90 people left 27 pay, i have a pretty tight/solid image
no reads on villain, UTG+1 is rather LAG

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Button (t10015)
SB (t4166)
BB (t2685)
UTG (t1940)
UTG+1 (t6847)
MP1 (t1860)
MP2 (t3480)
Hero (t11708)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t200, 1 fold, MP2 raises to t800, Hero calls t800, 3 folds, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: (t2100) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t2100) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
MP2 bets t1000, Hero raises to t2800, MP2 calls t1680 (All-In).

Final Pot: t7580

[/ QUOTE ]

Your play is fine if deep stacks. When initial raiser puts ~23% of his stack in preflop, the proper play is to either reraise preflop or bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

what if the UTG+1 was in the villains seat...say i flat call as i did in this hand, given he has still about 30+bb's what would be the correct flop and turn play if it was check to me on the flop as it was in the real hand? thanks for the insight

[/ QUOTE ]

You may still wish to raise preflop or bet the flop. Depends on the foe and the situation. BTW, UTG+1 at 34xBB is not deep in my book, even though he may be one of the bigger stacks in the tournament. Deep is 100xBB+. Medium is 50xBB-100xBB. 30-50xBB is usually average in middle stages of tournaments. 10-30xBB is shallow. Less than 10xBB is short, push or fold short.

But slowplaying and trapping and/or being able to get away from the hand for cheap when all you have is 1 pair are more important considerations when the chips are deep.

If UTG+1 with his 6800 chips made it 800 to go, your preflop choices are calling, raising, or pushing. I don't like pushing, because it allows him to play correctly if he folds (only partially compensated by the huge mistake of his occasional calls).

If you raise preflop, what amount should you raise to get him to make a mistake? You are charging him a price to see the flop. If he has KK, he has about a 10-11% chance to be leading on the flop. He is 8.3:1 to flop a set, but so are you.

If you just minraised to 1400, what are his odds on the call? He calls 600 to win 2500 in the pot (assuming your 1400, his 800 and the 300 in dead money are all that's in the pot) plus 5400 in implied odds if he doubles up. 8900 to 600 is 15:1. So, a min raise doesn't make him make a mistake if you pay off on a K high flop.

If you are going to pay off his flopped set, you need to raise it to at least 1800. Now, it's 1000 for him to call, and if he calls, he can win 2900 in the pot plus 5000 more in implied odds if he doubles up. 7900:1000 or 7.9:1 implied odds on 8.3:1 shot. Small mistake to call with KK, even if you pay off his set on the flop. So, raising it to 1800-2000 would be the proper preflop raise at these stack levels.

The problem with raising to 1800-2000 is that you tip him off that you have a big hand. Thus, if he has KQ and misses the flop, or TT and an overcard comes, he can get away from the hand if you make a bet on a later street. In other words, there is a decent chance that all the money you make on the hand is the preflop betting.

That's one reason to merely call. To disguise the strength of your hand and induce him to c-bet and to trap him. Another reason to call is if an aggressive player is yet to act preflop. Some players love the squeeze play. While you are only a 3:2 favorite to win against 2 underpairs, you can afford to gamble getting 2:1 on your money when you are deep and they can't knock you out.

Bottom line, when your chips or his are short, shallow or sometimes even average, you are committed to go all the way with AA. When you both have medium or deep stacks, slowplaying, trapping and/or getting away from AA become viable options.