The connection between a spiritual experience and a certain religion

[Taraz]

godBoy, I have another question for you that's more relevant to the OP.

Are there things that you believe in terms of your religion that you haven't seen good "evidence" for? I know that you see the words of the Bible confirmed in your every day life, but at some point you're doing an induction right? Everything you've seen seems to be true, so you take the parts you haven't personally witnessed as truth?

If you agree that you do this, whose authority do you trust in interpreting the Bible passages you haven't seen confirmed in your life?

[JussiUt]

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The fact that people are exposed to that which their parents enable them to be exposed to is no argument at all that Christianity is not correct.

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No it's not but the point I was trying to make was that it's natural to select the religion which is around you. You choose Christianity because it is the most familiar to you. I don't know about your religious background but I doubt you searched most of the holy books and most of the religions before becoming a Christian. It came naturally to you that the Bible is the Book for you because it was such an influence in your surroundings.

You answered to the hypothesis that if you were born in Pakistan you probably would be a muslim positively. Doesn't that indicate that we really do not have much to say what religion we choose especially if we are taught one religion as a child? Doesn't that make sense that the same way you feel the Bible is an awesome book with great advice and great accuracy a muslim born in Pakistan feels about the Qur'an? Aren't all spiritual experiences subjective and the surroundings influence heavily on how we interpret our experiences?

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This just isn't right, it's no where close to logical or reasonable that mutually exclusive beliefs can co-exist.
This type of belief is just intellectual dishonesty and a perversion of the truth (if such a thing exists). The thing that separates religions is it's theology, it's defining 'facts' about the nature of God that it claims. ptb shouldn't try to make Christianity something it is not, it's nothing more than muddying the waters and perverting the truth.

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Taraz is already discussing with you about this so I just make a quick point. IF you agree that spiritual experiences are subjective isn't it expected that different dogmas are born? This is related to the point of my original post - you feel the Bible is correct and that Christianity is what moves you. Isn't it possible that it's your subjective experience and that muslims in other countries have exactly the same feelings? How do you explain this? If you believe the dogmas of Christianity are correct how do you explain the "wrong" dogmas of Islam? Or Hinduism? How is it that the religion you most likely were "born into" is the correct one and the others are nonsense? (Ok, this wasn't such a quick point after all)

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I don't claim to 'know' all that much, just logically concluded beliefs from my experiences.

Firstly, There is too much in the atheistic world view that doesn't fit my experience.
Secondly, there is sufficient evidence(personally) to suggest that Jesus is in fact who he claimed to be.

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I'm fine with all this. That's a legitimate view of yours. Just remember that there are people who would say "there is sufficient evidence (personally) to suggest that Brahma is in fact who he claimed to be." Why do you believe they have a bigger chance of being wrong than you do or do you believe so?

And sincere thanks to the first posters in this thread. Those were great responses.

[godBoy]

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Are there things that you believe in terms of your religion that you haven't seen good "evidence" for?

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Sure, a number of things, heaven, hell etc..

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I know that you see the words of the Bible confirmed in your every day life, but at some point you're doing an induction right? Everything you've seen seems to be true, so you take the parts you haven't personally witnessed as truth?

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This is what Faith is all about for me, I act 'as if I believed' the bible were absolutely true, but I don't have reason to 'believe' with 100% assurance that it is all 100% correct.
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..whose authority do you trust in interpreting the Bible passages you haven't seen confirmed in your life?

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I get God's help when interpreting scripture, I also talk it through with those who have been around for longer than me.

[Duke]

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I get God's help when interpreting scripture, I also talk it through with those who have been around for longer than me.

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I'd like to put you on the payroll as a $250 an hour bible consultant. Your direct line to God will be easier to sell than your other collaborative contacts, though.

[godBoy]

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Aren't all spiritual experiences subjective and the surroundings influence heavily on how we interpret our experiences?

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yes.

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Isn't it possible that it's your subjective experience and that muslims in other countries have exactly the same feelings? How do you explain this? If you believe the dogmas of Christianity are correct how do you explain the "wrong" dogmas of Islam? Or Hinduism? How is it that the religion you most likely were "born into" is the correct one and the others are nonsense? (Ok, this wasn't such a quick point after all)

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Firstly, being a Christian does not require you to believe that all other religions have no truth in them, and are nonsense. If there are Muslims experiencing God in the same way as I then it would be because we are experiencing a shared truth.
As in the truth of connecting with a personal creator God, it's this earnest seeking of God that will always produce results. If a child calls out to his Father - his Father will answer, even if he doesn't know the right name to call him by.

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Why do you believe they have a bigger chance of being wrong than you do or do you believe so?

[/ QUOTE ]As i've said, my beliefs do not require me to believe these things. All I can speak of is what I have experienced, period.

[godBoy]

While it may sound ridiculous to you, it is plain and simple Christian theology.
It's not really all that bold a statement to say that I communicate with God, all believers.. well the majority of believers feel the same way.

[Duke]

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While it may sound ridiculous to you, it is plain and simple Christian theology.
It's not really all that bold a statement to say that I communicate with God, all believers.. well the majority of believers feel the same way.

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Who am I to argue with it? I'm just thinking that others might be less confident in their ability to talk to their gods, and figure there might be some money to be made.

Even to someone like me (to whom this is obviously absurd), the concept of a bible consultant under this pretext is less of a scam than a lot of "legit" consulting engagements anyhow.

[JussiUt]

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Firstly, being a Christian does not require you to believe that all other religions have no truth in them, and are nonsense. If there are Muslims experiencing God in the same way as I then it would be because we are experiencing a shared truth.
As in the truth of connecting with a personal creator God, it's this earnest seeking of God that will always produce results. If a child calls out to his Father - his Father will answer, even if he doesn't know the right name to call him by.

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So why did you say PTB's idea that all religions are trying to reach the same God is false? You said that "if a child calls out to his Father - his Father will answer even if he doesn't know the right name to call him by". That's basically the same thing.

[godBoy]

My example was saying that various people are trying to reach the same God.

But, there are Religions that aren't pointing to this God.

[bunny]

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So why do they keep being discarded and replaced with new ones?

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Come on bunny.. mostly scientific findings are very consistent throughout time(and it's getting better as time goes on), some are re-shaped, and very few are completely discarded.

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I believe in a religion which I expect to be wrong

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This isn't justs semantic differences - this sentence means something distinctive, that you are a confused person [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

When in fact you mean to say that you believe in a religion, but you don't expect it to be 100% right.
99.999% correct is hardly 'wrong'

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I dont think you're right about scientific theories not being discarded - admittedly not every day, but often enough that it's likely to happen again. In the nineteenth century I would have "known" that Newton's laws governed how things moved. I would have believed that newtonian mechanics was an accurate portrayal of how the world really is. Nonetheless I would have been (along with most of the scientifically literate) wrong in that specific belief. That's all that I'm saying. We have a bunch of well justified beliefs. There is no inconsistency in saying that we are pretty sure that some of them are wrong.

Taking it back to religion (where I claim to be confident I am following the wrong religion) do you claim to be 99.999% sure you are right in your interpretation of the bible? My only point was I am 99.999% sure I am wrong on some points and I think all believers should acknowledge this without feeling it is compromising their theism - it isnt a contradictory, nor particularly unusual state of affairs.

IMO, it lends some credence to NotReady's argument that you cant rationalise your way to faith, also to Peter666 and BluffThis's arguments for the necessity of the Catholic church. (Perhaps this is part of where you are coming from. I cant remember your position on the authority of the church, but it's the only way I can see to claim certainty for your religious beliefs. "I may have misunderstood it, but my church is advocating the perfect, true religion as it is the only one guided by God.")