NL10 TP2K : lot of actions on flop

Zanton · #1 05-31-2007, 03:18 PM

Villain is 27/9.6/1.4 (2.2 AF on flop) in 83 hands.
SB isn't important.
No particular reads.

The previous hand, I won a huge pot (24$) with a set played aggressively on a J93 flop.

My main question is about my 4Bet : I think it was too high because I'm quite commiting myself anyway.
I thought if I call, I wouldn't know know where I was in the hand, and I was in a bad situation on turn.
Do you call his all-in ?

Any thoughts appreciated.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

SB ($11.30)
Hero ($24.20)
UTG ($4.30)
MP ($10.80)
CO ($0.85)
Button ($2.70)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises to $0.2, 2 folds, SB calls $0.15, Hero calls $0.10.

Flop: ($0.60) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets $0.25, Hero raises to $1.15, MP raises to $2.05, SB folds, Hero raises to $5, MP raises to $10.80 (All-In), Hero ?

Final Pot: $19.65

Go_BroKe · #2 05-31-2007, 03:24 PM

I don't 4bet here. I call his raise and look what he is doing on the turn. His 3 Bet on the flop shows real strengh.

I also play this hand very carefully, that means c/f to big bets on later streets.

BevillTheDevil · #3 05-31-2007, 03:50 PM

id call and re-evaluate turn, if turns a blank i might b/f you could c/c then c/c river but i dont really like that line or if you really think your behind c/f turn...

HotdogPoker · #4 05-31-2007, 04:09 PM

As mentioned already, don't 4-bet the flop.

However, I am wondering what we are hoping to see on the turn to continue on in this hand. Villain min-raised PF and has seen a bet and a raise on the flop and still 3-bet. This looks like AA or KK here in which case we're drawing very slim, or QQ in which case we're drawing dead. Call me a nit, I might actually fold here.

Zanton · #5 05-31-2007, 04:10 PM

I don't like the c/c line on turn because you still don't know where you stand. What hand do you think he could have ?

He minraised preflop. Some players like to minraise monster like AA or KK.
It can be some kind of draws too.

I 4Bet because I thought a call won't give me any information : in fact it's a kind of minraise/3B. I'm OOP too. It's the main reason I 4Bet, otherwise it could be a sort of RIO situation (not sure if it applies exactly here). And just won a big pot being aggressive with my set, I thought I could make him fold with my 4Bet.

b/f is another possibility but not quite different from 4betting : how much do you bet on turn ? Pot is 5$.

I don't like c/c or c/f on turn because I'm OOP :/ Maybe it's a mistake, dunno.

cubase · #6 05-31-2007, 05:23 PM

I've not yet read the responses as to not taint my thinking.

With the villian at Villain is 27/9.6/1.4, he's only raising good aces, 99ish++, and maybe some suited broadway connectors. In other words, your KQs is almost always dominated if you get action on either the K or Q that flops. I either fold pre-flop or 3-bet and try to take the pot down if I know my villian will fold to the 3-bet most of the time. If he only calls my 3-bet, he probably has JJ, QQ, AKs, AKo, and maybe other PP's if he doesn't know how to play PP's for set value correctly. At least I know what type of flops I can probably bet. Also, by 3-betting, you take control of the hand, get the action heads-up (probably), and provided you feel comfortable playing in a re-raised pot HU OOP, then you evaulate the flop texture and make your moves accordingly.

Yes we are getting decent odds to see the flop, but we pretty much have to hit the flop hard (two pair, flush/straight draw). If you can't lay down an umimproved K or Q when it comes on the flop and there is action against this villian, you should go ahead and fold pre-flop.

As played, the SB said he hit a piece (or a draw), you said you can easily beat the draw, and the OR said he can beat you both. Unless you have a read that says he is doing this with anything other than AA, KK, AQ, QQ and the improbable 33, 44... you have a fold. He has you beat here 90%+ of the time I believe.

I'd rather call the raise with 67s than KQs because you won't be dominated when this particular villian makes his raise. It also makes it easier to play the flop.

There was a great post about not putting yourself into marginal situations by how you handle yourself pre-flop. The decision we make early often makes our later street decisions easier. Calling raises from players with a tight raising range with dominated hands makes for tough decisions on later streets.

Another consideration is to think about how you want the pot to play out. Do you want to play for all your chips? You pretty much said you did when you made the raise. If you want to go to the felt with TPGK, shove the MP after he min-raises you. When called, you are likely behind, and I don't think you had much FE here, and you had no re-draws. A shove seems out of the question against this villian.

As played, I like the raise to find out what's going on, but once you are min-raised, I think you are way behind. You probably have to hit your king and your king only to win. You do not have the odds to draw for a 3 outer, so you fold. With 3 outs for one card you need something like 15:1, which are you aren't getting with the pot odds nor the implied odds.

Edit: Made some minor grammatical corrections and an extra comment or two.

Zanton · #7 06-01-2007, 04:14 AM

Thank you for the analysis, very interesting.

Let's say I 3B preflop for $0.8, he'll call. Almost 10% preflop raise means he plays SC too (or not ? I'm interesting in a post giving pf raise/hand range). Same flop comes, I pot bet, he minraises (it seems he like that) : it's seems to me nitty to fold to his minraise. 67s AKs AJs could do this, even JJ TT and of course AA KK AQ imo. So you say you fold on his minraise ?

By the way, SB was the kind of guy who leads weak every raised pot to try to steal it yet or get some information if he can steal it on turn. It really means nothing from a flop play point of view.

cubase · #8 06-01-2007, 01:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for the analysis, very interesting.

Let's say I 3B preflop for $0.8, he'll call. Almost 10% preflop raise means he plays SC too (or not ? I'm interesting in a post giving pf raise/hand range). Same flop comes, I pot bet, he minraises (it seems he like that) : it's seems to me nitty to fold to his minraise. 67s AKs AJs could do this, even JJ TT and of course AA KK AQ imo. So you say you fold on his minraise ?

By the way, SB was the kind of guy who leads weak every raised pot to try to steal it yet or get some information if he can steal it on turn. It really means nothing from a flop play point of view.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is Pokey's post on hand reading...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0#Post8629256

The first section lists some hand ranges and pre-flop percentages... In particular here is the one for 10%...

" 10% = 'pairs 66+, AK, AQ, suited aces, KQs, QJs' "

I agree, it is nitty to fold the KQs to the min-raise. What I recommended is that if you cannot laydown KQs unimproved when you get a lot of action on a Kxx or Qxx board, *you* should probably lay it down pre-flop. In other words, don't put yourself in a tough position. Simply fold it pre-flop and wait for a spot you feel comfortable with.

If you can lay it down when you do get action, then play it.

I'm also suggesting that we don't play hands necessarily because they are playable, but because we have a plan for the hand against specific villians, positions, stack-sizes, moods, etc.

Repeating myself, but in this case, the villian's range is pretty narrow. Knowing that, I know I'm trying to flop big. If I hit the Kxx or Qxx board and get significant action, I'm probably beat *against this villian* unless I have a specific read. Against another villian, my hand might be good and I might felt with it.

Based on his aggression, if he had a weak queen or something like JJ, TT, etc, me might just call. He probably lays anything he missed and underpairs. But when he gets aggressive, I'm thinking TPTK or better.

Hopefully I was a little clearer here. It's essentially the same reason we laydown AJ to a raise from a tight player. If we flop the Axx and get action, where are we at? Probably beat. If we flop the Jxx and get action where are we? Beat by overpair. We want to be the one raising AJ and dicating the action. Not calling and playing hit to win (except with PP's and occassionally SC's in position).

cubase · #9 06-01-2007, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Same flop comes, I pot bet, he minraises (it seems he like that) : it's seems to me nitty to fold to his minraise. 67s AKs AJs could do this, even JJ TT and of course AA KK AQ imo. So you say you fold on his minraise ?

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't address this in my other post. In this case, I probably fold (or call and then check/fold to good sized bet on the turn) and continue to watch him and take notes.

Again, his aggression isn't high. While *we* feel a min-raise is weak, I find that at 10NL a min-raise is "strong" to the players that use it. If you raise pre-flop and get min-raised, you are often looking at big hands even though it doesn't "feel" like it. They just don't know how to raise. Of course, we take advantage of that by getting great odds to call and snap their AK, JJ+, etc.

A min-raise is different than a weak donk bet in that, the weak donk bet usually means exactly that. A weak hand. TPNK, 2nd button, a draw.

A min-raise really does convey strength to these players in most cases. The usual disclaimers apply: Know thy villian. Take notes, read stats.

tiger_hall · #10 06-01-2007, 02:03 PM

after MP raises you then it is simply a fold