Burn cards online

[xxGreat1xx]

no doesnt matter. The odds dont change because you still dont know any of the cards.

[DMoogle]

Pick up a couple of Theory of Poker. It'll help you understand this concept (as well as many others). It just doesn't matter.

FWIW, the reason there are burned cards in live games is to prevent people from cheating with marked cards (i.e. the top card prevents the cheater from seeing what card is really going to come). I'm pretty sure that's the ONLY reason for it.

[gurgeh]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't care if people have a problem with someone asking a question. Just put the math out there and I'll learn from it and someone else might also. I know that it seems like a stupid question to some people, but I would rather be 100% sure about it then just take someone's word for it who may not have thought it through completely.

In a game with burn cards would you rather have the 50/50 made hand or drawing hand? In a game without burned cards would you rather have the same made hand or the drawing hand? If it doesn't matter and you are sure that it doesn't, then put the math out there and let that be scrutinized. It's just a question from someone trying to think and learn about poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a math problem, it's a conceptual one. Burning a card changes nothing about odds unless you know what the burn card is to be. If you disagree, consider this: Would it affect a made or drawing hand to burn the second card and deal the top card? Would it change the odds to deal a random card from the middle of the deck? Would it help any type of hand to burn 10 cards instead of one? Of course not.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Like rj said, it doesn't matter if a card is burned or not since you have no information about the cards that were burned. Your odds of drawing the Ah from the top of a shuffled deck are 1/52. Burn the top card and it's still 1/52. Burn 51 cards and it's still 1/52 even if though there's only one card left. Your odds don't change at all since you have no information on what was burned.

[/ QUOTE ]



easy concept to understand (for most around here).
difficult to explain to someone who doesn't "get it."
but this example probably does the best job i've seen.

[Scientize]

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it. After thinking about rJ's and Dire's posts I set up an example for myself. I took the 4 aces from the deck. The chances of drawing the ace of spades is 1 in 4 or 25%. So with 3 cards left the chances of drawing the ace of spades becomes 1 in 3 or 0. So 3/4ths of the time you have a 1/3 chance and 1/4th of the time you have 0 chance. (3/4)(1/3)=3/12 which reduces to 1/4. I hope my math is right on that. I just wanted to thank you guys again for helping me understand the concept.

[MicroBob]

you had to multiply all that out to figure out that if you put one of the four cards in a different pile it doesn't change your odds?


I guess you are kind of getting it now. But it seems like you don't quite REALLY get it imo or else you wouldn't need to do the multiplication stuff.
But you were previously kind of stuck on this other mode of thinking so 'proving' it to yourself that way to get that part of your brain on the right page is all well and good I guess.

But to truly understand why the burn-card makes zilcho difference I do think you still need to be understand it conceptually and without all the multiplication stuff.

The example that I quoted is a good one for this.

Another example to borromw from your own with 4 cards:
You have four cards.
You have all of them in one deck. Your chances of drawing the ace of spades are 1 in 4.

You put one of the cards off to the side. Your chances are still 1 in 4.

You change your mind and put that card back in the deck. But then you decide to put a different one off to the side.
Your chances are still 1 in 4.

You seperate the cards into 2 different piles. Your chances are still 1 in 4.

You 'burn' 3 of the cards and only have 1 card left in the deck. Your chances are still 1 in 4.

You seperate them into 4 different 'piles' or 'decks' of 1 card each. Your chances are still 1 in 4.


you have to visualize that 'burning' a card doesn't do anything to it. You don't know what the burn-card was.

You can arrange them however you like in however many piles you like but you ALWAYS have 4 unknown cards even if you decide to blindly ditch 3 of them first or whatever.
Your chances are ALWAYS one in 4.

[Knighthawk]

Your math is exactly correct and a very good example of why the burn card doesn't change the odds or probability of drawing the selected card. If you burnt two cards or three cards in your example you would still end up with 1/4.

Two burns: (1/2)(1/2) + (1/2)(0) = 1/4
Three burns: (1/4)(1) + 3/4(0) = 1/4

I commend you for stopping and thinking it through because it isn't intuitive to many people (as someone mentioned above the "third-base" in blackjack analogy).

[Bobo Fett]

NH MicroBob.

Also feel compelled to correct my own post...I said "This is not a common misconception", I actually meant that it IS a common misconception.

Perhaps that was obvious to others. What can I say, I'm a nit about my own posts.

[MicroBob]

I thought you meant to say "This isn't not an uncommon misconception"

[Bobo Fett]

No, I meant quite the opposite.

*Head asplodes*