ZeeJustin the next to get caught multi accounting Party MTTs

[jman220]

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sometimes even with a lawyer (which the state seems to think is pretty important, it being unconstitutional and all for them to take things from you without providing one).

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Dude, that's what called a civil case. You certainly aren't entitled to an attorney.

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You aren't even necessarily entitled to one in a criminal case, if the offense you are being charged which does not carry the possibility of jail time.

[ghostwriter]

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It's odd that most everyone else is so trusting of these sites to always do the correct thing.

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I really don't see a choice, do you?

We are talking about players from around the world, not just the US (I'm Canadian btw) so talking about US case law is incorrect for a lot of us.

Given the quasi-legal nature of the whole business in Norht America you have to vote with your $$$, because you have no other recourse.

If we don't like how a site deals with it, we can leave.

Its up to the players to pressure the sites into doing the right thing, because all the sites care about is the rake and if their reputation is getting in the way of making more rake, they fix it or die.

Regards,
Woodguy

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Certainly our choices would be appear to be limited in these matters. However, I still don't understand the blind faith in Party's ability to accurately and fairly determine when funds should be seized. This is a company that designed easily exploitable software, recorded these exploits, collected fees from the people doing the exploiting and then ignored the matter until people complained about it, at which point they then added over six figures to their bottom line by seizing the funds of the cheaters they had previously ignored.

They're the good guys in this situation?

[woodguy]

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Uh, no, you didn't lose that money. If the DC abuser had called, then his disconnect saved you from losing more. The only thing the DC abuser cost you was the pot you would have won if the abuser had folded. I understand people don't like disconnections. I don't like them either, but at the level I play the disconnectors don't understand what the advantageous situations are for disconnection.

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No.

example: I have a set, my opponent has 2 pair, I put him all in on the river, he has $500 behind, and I cover.

He disconnects and finds out his 2 pair are no good at a $500 discount. That's the $500 I have been cheated.

If my hand was a loser, I am glad he disconnected. obv.

Why did you assume I lost the hand, have you been watching me play? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Regards,
Woodguy

[bearly]

are you getting yourself available to bring a class-action against some poker site? this would have the effect of picking the last few mouthfull's of meat from the bones of those who have been cheated. i hope people realize that this might be very thinly disguised spam.........oh well, on-line poker: the fool's and cheater's paradise......b

[hencole]

Looks like Stars may need to start changing the graphics on their site.

[sweetjazz]

Just a tax question to keep this thread going as we march on to 2400 posts and beyond...

Let's say player X is found to be cheating and has Y dollars seized from his online poker account. Is the correct way to file your taxes to include the Y dollars as gambling income but also to include those Y dollars as subsequent gamlbing losses?

[woodguy]

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Certainly our choices would be appear to be limited in these matters. However, I still don't understand the blind faith in Party's ability to accurately and fairly determine when funds should be seized. This is a company that designed easily exploitable software, recorded these exploits, collected fees from the people doing the exploiting and then ignored the matter until people complained about it, at which point they then added over six figures to their bottom line by seizing the funds of the cheaters they had previously ignored.

They're the good guys in this situation?

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I agree that the choices are limited, and that's not a good thing.

My question to you then is, if you don't trust the site to do the right thing, what are you going to do?

What's the other alternative to having Party in charge of Party?

If you are uncomfortable with Party being in charge, that's your perrogative, so are you just leaving or are there other measures that you would take?

I actually agree with you, I am uncomfortable with Stars and their stance, so I'm leaving.

I am glad that Stars is smart enough to have different punishments for different crimes, but I do no think they have gone far enough in this case.

[El Diablo]

aeest,

I agree w/ your general point that there may be some contract formation issues w/ a policy and clause like "all money gets confiscated." However, that does not preclude Party or Stars or anyone else from imposing certain punitive measures for breach of contract. I have spent a fair amount of time with legal and gov't people discussing some of the other points you bring up (in considering the risks of various poker-related businesses), but won't be responding to those points in this thread. If you want to start a new thread about those issues elsewhere, I'd be happy to discuss.

I am also not sure why you are so confident that Stars is correct in their assessment of how many accounts ZJ had or what he did or did not cheat in. Lee has said that he did not enter the two accounts they knew of in STTs and only had two accounts. That does not mean that he did not cheat/collude in other ways, it just means that Stars did not identify any cheating, just as they had not identified his multiple entries in the tournies. However, I would not be surprised at all if the two or six accounts on Stars/Party were just the most obvious things that ZJ did. No reason to believe those were ALL of his accounts on these sites. Stars obviously have been aware of this problem for a long time and have either not been able to identify violators or have chosen to do little or nothing about them. Party and this uproar has forced them to take some action, but it seems to me like they might still be worried about admitting to the fact that Stars has for a long time been turning a blind eye to widespread and systematic cheating of this nature among many of their high-volume high-revenue regulars. And I still haven't been instilled with a sense of confidence that Stars is willing to aggressively come out against practices that are utilized by their super high volume players.

Lee has shown himself and Stars to be an organization of high integrity in the past, so I feel like I owe him the benefit of the doubt. I am not yet going to condemn Stars in the way that some of you have. I am waiting for Lee to respond to some of the points I made in the softplaying thread as well as consider whether it might be appropriate to take more punitive measures in cases like this. I hope (and believe there's a good chance) Stars will consider all of this and come out w/ a strong, proactive stance against such unethical practices.

[suzzer99]

It's very possible $5k is a pretty high punitive sum for the amount ZJ wagered grandmaing MTTs. Sounds like he only did it in a few.

[eespinola]

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I bet these kids are all pissing themselves right now

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The sad thing is that by now, they must have got all their money from all their accounts... So what's going to be the punish for these guys? Their reputation? They are just going to create more accounts!! IP address?? just move to another place, with the money they make they can be playing from different places easily!! Or how about different internet services for the same place... I think it is a war that will never end.