My Attitude About The Math /Science/ Logic Illiterate

[born2ramble]

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Most people are really discussing side issues here. On the side issue of what people are capable of learning, I think the current state of the Science and Technology of Education is so primitive we are just guessing. My guess is that when the Science and Technology of Education is far far more advanced, as it will be in the future, we would be amazed at what kinds of mental skills most everbody will be able to master. Post-Phd level skills of today in SML will become basic education for everybody.

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Wow. This seems excessively optimistic to me. I don't think anything in history even remotely suggests that this could ever be possible unless you're thinking of completely new forms of education (not just science and technology education). For example, moving away from the teacher/student model towards directly altering the brains of individual "students".

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I think you missed the word in bold.

[PairTheBoard]

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PTB,

Thanks for the analysis. I agree with everything you said (and believe that's DS's precise arguement) except for this:

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The Quantum is SO large that the non literate deserves to be called a Moron in comparison to the MSL literate for purposes of work on this Problem - all other things being equal.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but, just to clarify, he's only calling the 27% morons. The minds Capable of becoming MSL literate, but who CHOOSE not to. If you fall into this 27%, then go on to pretend the MSL components of some problems don't exist: you're a moron.

And the whole point of the post is to motivate the smart-lazy type to learn some basic MSL.

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Maybe he calls them Morons if they refuse to accept that they are at such a HUGE disadvantage when it is so apparent to him that they are. So I think he uses the term Moron a couple of different ways. One, to decrible the HUGE disadvantage, and secondly to admonish those who refuse to accept that they are at such a HUGE, Normal-Moron, type of disadvatange. So I think your point elaborates further on mine but doesn't affect what I proposed.

PairTheBoard

[born2ramble]

Rduke,

Quick question for your on this side-issue. I agree that Phil is probably underestimating environmental factors, but do you agree that it's not necessarily vital for DS's argument?

You can simply look at the population as "where they are now" and view an individual's potential from this point. And I'm not saying that DS is correct in the 30% number, either - I reckon that it is higher. But I doubt he's talking about "God-given ability" strictly. I think "brain structure" was a carefully chosen phrase to encompass all components of the individual's current mental situation.

[Silent A]

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Why did you omit mentioning the massive, huge, ginormous influence of environmental factors on the brain?

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FYP [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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However, from what I understand, most of these environmental factors are heavily biased towards the early stages of fetal, infant, and child development.

So if we're talking about the current adult population then it doesn't really matter much if the current state is due to inhereted or environmental factors. Either way, a large fraction of the population either isn't capable of becoming MSL literate via current educational methods or simply chooses not to put in the work required.

[Silent A]

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I think you missed the word in bold.

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OK, but it still sounds excessively optimistic unless he's in full blown science fiction/fantasy mode.

[Silent A]

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==============
So you have a function,

A(m)
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I interpreted David's post to mean that most meaningful problems always have enough MSL in them (especially "L" - logic) to give an MSL literate a significant edge.

I think it's fair to say that any issue that doesn't involve a lot of logic probably isn't an interesting or important problem to begin with.

I know that's not how David worded it, however.

[Taraz]

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Why did you omit mentioning the massive, huge, ginormous influence of environmental factors on the brain?

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FYP [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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However, from what I understand, most of these environmental factors are heavily biased towards the early stages of fetal, infant, and child development.

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That's true.

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So if we're talking about the current adult population then it doesn't really matter much if the current state is due to inhereted or environmental factors. Either way, a large fraction of the population either isn't capable of becoming MSL literate via current educational methods or simply chooses not to put in the work required.

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I don't think anybody can claim to know that a large fraction is incapable of becoming MSL literate. It's almost an entirely made up claim.

And I also think there are more reasons why someone might not become MSL literate. You mention educational methods might not be adequate or that the person doesn't work hard enough, but there are other factors involved. Maybe the person doesn't know that he needs to be MSL literate. That's the biggest factor in my opinion. If a person doesn't understand why it's so important he won't put in the work to learn.

[PairTheBoard]

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He is indicating there is a Sharp Dropoff somewhere in the graph and in his opinion, the Sharp Drop off is a lot closer to 0 than a lot of people think.

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I think David pointed out, though, that the sharp drop off can be accounted for largely by one reason: in logical thinking, if you make one small error early on, the rest of the thought-process will be founded on unstable grounds and inherently fouled up.

The advantage comes up in the long-run, because the MSL literates, although he/she might make slightly fewer mistakes, will benefit from the extrapolated effects (i.e. messing up whole modes of thought and strings of ideas.) And it seems logical thought is important in constructing knowledge in a whole bunch of areas, and that's probably why David advocates learning a whole buncha math. Even if he never uses advanced math in practical every-day situations, the mathematician's mind (or "MSL literate") will be trained and better-suited to pick up these small errors.

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yea. That sounds good theoretically and makes sense as a principle, but without examples it's hard to take a look at how it might apply. Do MSL NonLiterates really make terrible blunders in problems that only involve some MSL? Consider a mechanic working on a car. He's probably MSL NonLiterate according to Sklansky. And the Problem of working on a car involves some MSL. In order to diagnose the car's problems the mechanic needs to read diagnostic measures, and make logical deductions. He also needs some basic physics. And he is far from MSL literate if Sklansky's rough gauge of 3% is any indication.

But does he really make these kinds of logical blunders that prevent him from fixing the car? Just because he doesn't know an antecedent from a conclusion on a written test doesn't mean he can't apply some common sense when he determines what's wrong with the car. And to think a Physics professor who tinkers with cars would automatically do a better job right away than the mechanic with years of experience working on cars is pretty iffy to me. Where's all the compounding of logical errors theory in this case.

Without examples Sklansky's theory is like Aristotle's Physics. Just because a great mind came up with it doesn't mean it will stand up to the test.

PairTheBoard

[PairTheBoard]

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Most people are really discussing side issues here. On the side issue of what people are capable of learning, I think the current state of the Science and Technology of Education is so primitive we are just guessing. My guess is that when the Science and Technology of Education is far far more advanced, as it will be in the future, we would be amazed at what kinds of mental skills most everbody will be able to master. Post-Phd level skills of today in SML will become basic education for everybody.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. This seems excessively optimistic to me. I don't think anything in history even remotely suggests that this could ever be possible unless you're thinking of completely new forms of education (not just science and technology education). For example, moving away from the teacher/student model towards directly altering the brains of individual "students".

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I have in mind highly sophisticated virtual reality interactive experiences for the student. Ones with compelling features that motivate the student to push forward and improve his skills. And ones which instantly measure how he is learning, what he is learning, and his current skill level in applying that in creatively solving problems new to him.

It's only a matter of devoting enough resources to the development of this kind of technology.

PairTheBoard

[Silent A]

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I don't think anybody can claim to know that a large fraction is incapable of becoming MSL literate. It's almost an entirely made up claim.

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It depends what you mean by "large" and "incapable". I do think David tosses these fractions and words around too loosely.

David certinaly catagorizes people too easily. It should be obvious that the issue isn't capable vs. incapable as much as various degrees of obstacles an individual must overcome to attain MSL literacy. That said, there must be a significant fraction for whom the obstacles are so formidable that it's unreasonable to expect most of them to ever attain MSL literacy and there are others who could do it if only they put in the effort required.

Finally I'd add that I think that the key is to notice that the real problem here is people overestimating their abilities to understand/solve a problem. No matter how high up (or low down) the MSL tree you go, no percentile is immune from over reaching their grasp.

For example, I have no doubt that the people involved in the the decisions of the US invasion Iraq (both pre- and post-) were well above average MSL literates (well, except one [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]) but they made enourmous errors because they couldn't seem to grasp the conept that they didn't understand Iraq nearly as well as they thought they did.