Can raising preflop be bad even with aces?

[bravos1]

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AA has p/f equity and value. PUSH PUSH PUSH!!!

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AA has very little p/f equity and value against 8 other hands pf. It does not do well at all in a multi-way pot. I'll probably get my ass kicked for saying this here, but if you really were 9 handed there, throwing away your bullets wouldn't have been a bad mistake at all.....

(I'm not advising anyone to throw AA away ever, just making an exaggerated point....)

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\
ZOMG... again w/ this garbage?

O RLY?

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

34,268,837 games 169.953 secs 201,637 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 08.308% 07.54% 00.77% 2582312 264743.53 { random }
Hand 1: 08.301% 07.53% 00.77% 2579715 264960.19 { random }
Hand 2: 08.304% 07.53% 00.77% 2581101 264648.28 { random }
Hand 3: 08.302% 07.53% 00.77% 2580165 264913.03 { random }
Hand 4: 08.305% 07.53% 00.77% 2581805 264175.86 { random }
Hand 5: 08.309% 07.54% 00.77% 2583071 264439.94 { random }
Hand 6: 08.301% 07.53% 00.77% 2579823 264967.11 { random }
Hand 7: 08.303% 07.53% 00.77% 2581278 263922.94 { random }
Hand 8: 33.566% 33.21% 00.35% 11381794 121002.11 { AA }

[bung]

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you have 22 instead of AA...what u gunna do? serious question

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check in for a free play

[Aaron W.]

I can't believe I'm about to respond to this thread...

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If every single person limped in that hand pf, then checking is usually the better play, even with AA.

The pot is already large. If you raise now, you create an even larger pot, making it correct for everyone to see you to the river post-flop...give up a tiny edge now, to gain it back post-flop. If you're lucky, you'll get a bettor in the later positions and you can c/r the field and thin it out....

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Preflop: Your edge is not tiny.
Postflop: Even if you check preflop the pot will be big enough for everyone to chase anything anyway. In the most ideal situation, you'll check-raise the button and give everyone at worst 6:1, which is enough to chase down with any pair to snag two pair/trips when because of implied odds in the large field. How much of an edge do you think you will have postflop?

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I dont assume I will always get outdrawn, I just know that I WILL give my opponents better odds to draw at the flop.

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Why?? Why does everyone care about giving their opponents bad odds? Don't you know that *YOU STILL MAKE MONEY* when they call with odds?

Edit: I just saw these:

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check for setvalue
winnar!

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I hope you're joking because this is so very very wrong.

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If you don't raise there is a bigger chance someone will flop a set or two pairs.

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This just makes me sad... or happy... because it means that people still suck at poker.

[Nogatsira]

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Pop Quiz (to OP and bung): you have 22 instead of AA...what u gunna do? serious question.

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check for setvalue
winnar!

[petsa]

If you don't raise there is a bigger chance someone will flop a set or two pairs. You might just get lucky and someone folds and puts dead money to the pot. Then again, since you are a huge favourite against every chaser, it is not a tragedy to get several limpers on the board. To get to river a limper has to pay at least 7 SBs (you raise PF and bet each street). Let's say you get AA a hundred times with 5 limpers and 100 times with 3 limpers. You are about 62% favourite with 3 limpers, with 5 limpers you are 49% 'dog.

EV(3)= (62*7*3)-(38*7*1)=1036
EV(5)= (49*7*5)-(51*7*1)=1358

So, if you keep the pot small you would be passing up 322SB= 161BB in this example. 161 BB is a lot to lose! (Of course, you would need to play on average 22 000 hands to get 100 AAs, but anyways...)

I'm noob, hope my math is correct

[Wetdog]

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I really dont get you here Wetdog and I'm really with bung on this one.
I rather play suited connecters in a multiway this big then aces.

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True enough, your 87s will flush 6% of the time, pair 33% and straighten ~5%. So your pair of 8's will be against my aces. Feel better?

As was shown before against 8 opponents you will win 33% of the time. Meaning you will lose 2/3 of the time. By the way, are all 8 of those villains going to the river? I don't think so either. Especially if you don't let them draw for free.

So, if you ain't betting them, fold them.

[Nogatsira]

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I really dont get you here Wetdog and I'm really with bung on this one.
I rather play suited connecters in a multiway this big then aces.

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True enough, your 87s will flush 6% of the time, pair 33% and straighten ~5%. So your pair of 8's will be against my aces. Feel better?

As was shown before against 8 opponents you will win 33% of the time. Meaning you will lose 2/3 of the time. By the way, are all 8 of those villains going to the river? I don't think so either. Especially if you don't let them draw for free.

So, if you ain't betting them, fold them.

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I get your point, but I would get it with less arrogance aswell.
Anyhow, why I said suited connecters: I'd play them for straight/flush value in a multiway and give them up when I don't hit. So if I'm in a multiway then I would know where I'm at by just looking at the board.

I guess I just suck at trowing away my rockets preflop..

[Buzz-cp]

If you make a flush with 87s and get heavy action, you will be wondering if you have the best flush. If the board pairs, you can't be for sure. It is not often that a hand will be a lock. This claim is not really true and does not really differentiate the two hands.

[Nogatsira]

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If you make a flush with 87s and get heavy action, you will be wondering if you have the best flush. If the board pairs, you can't be for sure. It is not often that a hand will be a lock. This claim is not really true and does not really differentiate the two hands.

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Hm, you're completely right.
As mentioned before: I probably just suck at trowing away my aces after the flop and therefor I get more 'bad beats' with them.

[nomadtla]

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If you make a flush with 87s and get heavy action, you will be wondering if you have the best flush. If the board pairs, you can't be for sure. It is not often that a hand will be a lock. This claim is not really true and does not really differentiate the two hands.

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Hm, you're completely right.
As mentioned before: I probably just suck at trowing away my aces after the flop and therefor I get more 'bad beats' with them.

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If you took your Aces to showdown everytime in limit hold'em you would not be far from wrong.