Question on raising/"one chip rule"

[PokerDealerSTL]

[ QUOTE ]
Would anyone's answer change if the second player had enough one dollar chips in his stack?

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope... again the dealer should not have to guess what the players intentions are, no matter what kind of color is in a players stack. Every place I have ever seen (and I have been all over) would rule this the same way if the floor person came over and had to make a decision.

Now I am not saying that there are house rules that change this, but I would say at least 99 percent of casinos rule it a call if you throw two five dollar chips in when it is six to go.

[Brettski]

At Crown Casino we have a tournament rule that states "if a player puts in two oversized chip which would constitute more than a call, but less than would constitute a raise, it shall be a call."

In short, it's a call.

It's a way of further clarifying the single oversized chip rule to include situations where a player puts in more than one single oversized chip.

[NickMPK]

[ QUOTE ]
At Crown Casino we have a tournament rule that states "if a player puts in two oversized chip which would constitute more than a call, but less than would constitute a raise, it shall be a call."

In short, it's a call.

It's a way of further clarifying the single oversized chip rule to include situations where a player puts in more than one single oversized chip.

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely agree that if the two chips are not enough to make a raise, it would be a call.

The question is: what if the two chips are enough to make a legal raise? If player 1 raises from 2 to 6, player 2 could raise from 6 to 10 if he wanted.

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
Nope... again the dealer should not have to guess what the players intentions are, no matter what kind of color is in a players stack.

[/ QUOTE ]
So if I put out two chips and those two chips add up to a raise, then it's not a raise because it looks like a call?

[RR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nope... again the dealer should not have to guess what the players intentions are, no matter what kind of color is in a players stack.

[/ QUOTE ]
So if I put out two chips and those two chips add up to a raise, then it's not a raise because it looks like a call?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly right, if it looks like a call it is a call.

[rageotones]

i think it should be a raise. i think the oversize chip rule should only apply to one chip.

for the guy talking about the "last significant chip rule":

say a guy throws out 5 $1 chips, and then realizes he's out of white, so he tosses in a redbird. you'd say this is a call. but, if he puts them all out at the same time, i don't think anyone could argue this isn't a raise.

more than one chip should be a raise imo unless the person states otherwise.

[frommagio]

[ QUOTE ]
i think it should be a raise. i think the oversize chip rule should only apply to one chip.

for the guy talking about the "last significant chip rule":

say a guy throws out 5 $1 chips, and then realizes he's out of white, so he tosses in a redbird. you'd say this is a call. but, if he puts them all out at the same time, i don't think anyone could argue this isn't a raise.

more than one chip should be a raise imo unless the person states otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a call. It really is, everywhere. Honestly, I can't believe there's so much confusion and disagreement here! It's basically the rule that we all learned as kids for buying things with cash - toss enough coins in there to cover the price, then stop.

Anyone who thinks otherwise simply hasn't spent much time in B&M poker rooms. This situation comes up all day long, on every table every day. I suppose many of you folks are online players primarily.

It sounds complicated when it's written down, but it's obvious in real life. Again, it's the grammar school rule - the way we all learned to pay for our candy.

[rageotones]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think it should be a raise. i think the oversize chip rule should only apply to one chip.

for the guy talking about the "last significant chip rule":

say a guy throws out 5 $1 chips, and then realizes he's out of white, so he tosses in a redbird. you'd say this is a call. but, if he puts them all out at the same time, i don't think anyone could argue this isn't a raise.

more than one chip should be a raise imo unless the person states otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a call. It really is, everywhere. Honestly, I can't believe there's so much confusion and disagreement here! It's basically the rule that we all learned as kids for buying things with cash - toss enough coins in there to cover the price, then stop.

Anyone who thinks otherwise simply hasn't spent much time in B&M poker rooms. This situation comes up all day long, on every table every day. I suppose many of you folks are online players primarily.

It sounds complicated when it's written down, but it's obvious in real life. Again, it's the grammar school rule - the way we all learned to pay for our candy.

[/ QUOTE ]

i have played more hands online, but probably an equal # of hours of online vs. b&m. i have seen most things, but never this.

i guess i understand the reason for saying it's a call, but i also know that if i did this (not that i ever would), and someone told me it was a call, i think i'd have a very strong case for insisting it was a raise if that was my intention.

if you google "poker oversize chip rule," the first two entries talk about the rule in singular form. i think if you throw in more than one chip, it is your responsibility to state your intention to the dealer.

[mikech]

this is obviously a raise. let's review what happened:

the player did not put in one chip, nor an oversize chip. the player put TWO chips into the pot for an amount constituting a raise.

ok, do we all agree on the above? so what's the problem?

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Nope... again the dealer should not have to guess what the players intentions are, no matter what kind of color is in a players stack.

[/ QUOTE ]
So if I put out two chips and those two chips add up to a raise, then it's not a raise because it looks like a call?

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly right, if it looks like a call it is a call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Randy,

IMO the problem here is unclear wording in the most highly used/referenced rulebooks. For example, from the Commerce/Hollywood Park/Bicycle Club rulebook:

From the "Betting and Raising" Section

"If you put a single chip in the pot that is larger than the bet, but do not announce a raise, you are assumed to have only called. Example: In a $3-$6 game, one player opens for $3 and the next player puts a $25 chip in the pot without saying anything. The second player has merely called the $3 bet."

From the "No-Limit Rules" Section:

"A bet of a single chip or bill without comment is considered to be the full amount of the chip or bill allowed. However, a player acting on a previous bet with a larger denomination chip or bill is calling the previous bet unless this player makes a verbal declaration to raise the pot.

I took out the rule numbers because they differ a bit between clubs (but the wording is the same). Both passages make reference to a single chip. I recall this question being debated by various LA floor several times with equally experienced floor taking either side.

As mentioned elsewhere in the thread the rule really should be rewritten to provide clarity (indicating it's a call).


~ Rick


PS Sorry I haven't been posting lately. Been busy then my computer's motherboard blew up. Almost back up to speed didn't loss data but am running under Vista and installing new software. Posted the above quotes using OpenOffice Writer instead of MS Word (I had been using a very old version of MS Office not compatible with Vista). OpenOffice works good so far for $0 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].