JTs 2nd pair + FD in family pot

[aargh57]

In this hand MP is a LP and SB is 33/14/1.5. On the flop I really didn't want to knock anyone out as I thought I had a very good hand but MP probably had an Ace or better so I would have to catch up. On the turn I was still going for an overcall even though now I picked up more outs. I think I missed value by doing this, right?

Full Tilt 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets</font>, CO folds, Hero calls, SB folds.

River: (6.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

[milesdyson]

i raise preflop because JTs is beautiful.

i don't think the flop matters much. raising is viable for value and the chance to take a free turn card. calling is viable to keep MP in the lead with a likely Ax and increase the bets going in when you hit.

turn/river standard.

[yourface]

nh

edit: yah I agree with miles raise preflop. TJs is purty. also it makes lots of strong hands and we have the button so lets build a pot.

[KDawg]

gonna third the PF raise contingent here. Raising the flop for me is standard. this is the kind of hand and board where we can make a big fat pot with a nice hand here. I can see the reason for calling, but I like to raise, cause raising is fun. rest of teh hand is standard

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
nh

edit: yah I agree with miles raise preflop. TJs is purty. also it makes lots of strong hands and we have the button so lets build a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

About preflop. (Before reading Stox and Zobags book I would always raise, now I prolly wouldnt)

I would be surprised if JTs has much if any eq edge with the two limpers in. Maybe if both blinds calls.

Raising as a semibluff to increase FE doesnt make much sense either as MP is loose passive and prolly SD bound.

The stuff about having the button and that JTs makes big hands involves our postflop implied odds. By calling preflop we actually improve those odds. Building a big pot preflop with a hand without eq edge and without much FE only makes sense if villains are alert to the pot size when they decide to call down marginally or decide when to make semibluffs (this could be both good or bad depending on their hand reading skills). I doubt any of these villains are affected much by the potsize.

I am rambling. I think its close. I would raise QJs but limp T9s. But its pretty as hell, partciluar if its J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], so lets raise it [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

No eq edge, no FE, little if any reason to build a pot = limp preflop.

[Leader]

I think this is a pretty clear flop raise.

A few things to consider:
-Raising is clearly for value. Because it's a limp pot, our two pair/trip outs are especially clean. We also have a little bdsd action.
-If SB or BB have KJ/QJ, particularly with the K or Q of hearts, we gain significantly by pushing them out.
-If SB or BB have a lower FD or QT/T9, raising forces them into a mistaken call.
-Some amount of the time we have the best hand or we raise and force SB or BB to fold the best hand.
-You always gain by raising. You may or may not gain by calling.
-Raising has the potential to be a value bonanza. Calling gets you a little value most of the time.