calculating outs...

[acdc]

Hi people,
i've been playing poker for a few months(online) and i have a question regarding outs. After the hole cards are dealt what happens to those cards that are folded. Are they returned back to the deck or put aside. If they are put aside, won't the results of your outs calculation be incorrect since the folded cards may contain one or more of your outs. Thanks

[StepBangin]

Yes they are put to the side and yes some of your outs may have been folded

[Poker Plan]

Quite simply:

There are known cards (your hole cards and the board cards)

and unseen cards (ALL other cards)- it matters not where the unseen cards are- they are still unseen and hence unknown.

[rmontcal]

Poker Plan - although it is correct, that seems like an awkward way to answer the question. Your answer is making the assumption that if you did put the burn cards and discards at the bottom of the deck that you would never delve deep enough into the deck to get to them. At a ten handed table of Texas Hold Em, only 20 (hole cards) + 5 (board) + 3 (burn cards) = 28 are used, but if you had a non-standard home game with more players or if the game was seven stud, then your assumption may be less valid.

I think that the question is about replacement and the answer is no, there is no replacement.

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
Quite simply:

There are known cards (your hole cards and the board cards)

and unseen cards (ALL other cards)- it matters not where the unseen cards are- they are still unseen and hence unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

not all unseen cards are unknown. in very intense call/fold situations you need to think about the likely holdings that were folded just like you think about the likely holdings that remain live.

[PantsOnFire]

It doesn't matter if your outs are in the deck or in the folded cards or in the burn cards. All cards that are unkown have equal status.

That's why it's important not to mention what you folded when a hand is in play. Then your unknown cards will change the calculations. For example, you hold 72 and fold. The flop comes up 772. You say "damn, I folded a full house". Now, whoever heard you knows that a 7 and a 2 are are out of play and can more precisely calculate his hand odds. This is obviously very bad etiquette at the poker table.

Another similar situation is when you are in a hand and you show your neighbor (who is out of the hand) your hand and say your flush draw is too expensive so you have to fold. If some other player in the hand also has a flush draw he now knows that two of his outs are gone. Again, very bad.

[mmbossman]

[ QUOTE ]

not all unseen cards are unknown. in very intense call/fold situations you need to think about the likely holdings that were folded just like you think about the likely holdings that remain live.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never thought about outs that way, but it makes a lot of sense to use your reads in yet another way to help you. Thanks for that.

[Poker Plan]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter if your outs are in the deck or in the folded cards or in the burn cards. All cards that are unkown have equal status.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was trying to say in my reply. Sorry to the OP if I misunderstood the nature of the question.

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

not all unseen cards are unknown. in very intense call/fold situations you need to think about the likely holdings that were folded just like you think about the likely holdings that remain live.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never thought about outs that way, but it makes a lot of sense to use your reads in yet another way to help you. Thanks for that.

[/ QUOTE ]
thats what im here for

[ocdscale]

[ QUOTE ]
not all unseen cards are unknown. in very intense call/fold situations you need to think about the likely holdings that were folded just like you think about the likely holdings that remain live.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems very unlikely absent solid reads in live play (and almost impossible online) in holdem.

Someone deliberating a fold (where you put them solidly on a draw) could be anything from a gut-shot+mid pair, oesd, flush draw. And without the solid read of "he folded a draw," it could be anything from mid-pair/big kicker, TPNK, overcards. (Obviously your outs change in each situation)
Information is so tainted that you'd be better off not thinking about it.

Compare this to a game like stud, where people's hands are literally face up.

You have [T][8] 9
Someone showing a J raises on 3rd street, but folds after a player showing a Ace raises and a K calls. There's a fair chance that two of your J outs are dead, not just one, so you play the hand accordingly.

Similarly in hi-lo, when you can sometimes put a person squarely on a low-only hand (which is dangerous, of course), you can devalue your low card outs.

Knowing what kind of hand your opponent has is absolutely vital when you're discounting outs like this. This requires a lot of reads that aren't typically available in holdem (and almost never online).

For example, holding JT on a board of K 9 8.
When someone folds what you read to be a mid-pair hand, is it QQ? JJ? A9? T9? You could weight all those possibilities and weigh your outs that way, but it's so time consuming (and so dependent on your reads, after all he could have just been holding air) that it's a lot easier to just say "I have 8 outs to a straight."