Help with 4 betting..

[The Velour Fog]

During my rise through SSNL preflop problems was not really an issue because I could clearly outplay most oponents postflop. Now I'm playing 2/4-3/6 and I'm having trouble adjusting to 3 betting agressive villains when im OOP.

Assume 100 bb stacks in the following scenarios. Hero is semi LAG'ish (~30/22) and an agressive TAG villain has started his 3-betting campaign. Hero has mostly been folding like a good boy, maybe played a pot or two OOP which blows, and is starting to suspect that villain is taking advantage of the situation and thus he reaches for the 4 bet.

hand 1
hero: AQos raises 16
folds to villain on the button
villain: raises 50
hero: raises 150
1). villain goes all in
??
2). villain calls
flop 269 rainbow
??

hand 2
same as above but hero holds JJ

I feel i have some problems verbalizing my thoughts ( been up for too long ) but basically im having problems finding a suitable 4 betting range. If i have decided that villain is 3 betting light where do i draw the line? 1010? AJ? And when does hands that are clear folds to preflop pushes in a vacuum, become calls?
Or should i just forget about 4 betting all together (you're too dumb yo ) and just tighten my raising range and be content with playing more 3 bet pots OOP?

meh, any thoughts on 4 betting is welcome and my apologies for this disorganized post.

[RaiseAndPray]

I think it's a good post and a valid question which I can relate to. I often times struggle with this.

[yenman]

hand 1 villain goes all in: if villain is doing this with JJ+ and AK your hand totally sucks for equity. pokerstove says its like 30% equity for this range. Some people have become habitual 4-bettors because tight opponents will fold nay hand not in that range. If you plan to keep 4-betting and 3-betting really aggro this is probably a call.

hand 1: opponent flat calls): check / fold unless you hit an A. This is almost always QQ+ and AA is most of this range.

hand 2: equity wise AQ and JJ are almost idential against villain's range. check fold if opponent flat calls.

This is just a humble opinion

[PerDoom]

Whatever you do, don't 4bet to 150 with 400 effective stacks. Make it like 110-120 so you can make it easier to fold to a shove and not price yourself in. Also, it will lead to people 5bet bluffing you more often since you are not priced in whereas making it 150 just about guarantees for the villain to show up with a premium hand when he shoves.

And Josh made a good point in a recent thread that the value of your hand preflop doesn't really matter if all you plan on doing is 4bet bluffing. So, just because you have say AQ doesn't mean you should 4bet if you are planning on folding to a shove. It's more about the actual situation than the value of your bluffing hand (although having AQ makes his legitimate 3bet hands less likely).

When you do get called, unless you have a lot of history, it is wise to just shut down since everyone seems to have a hand that they are willing to felt unless the board becomes super scary (AKx board for example). But, if you do 4bet bluff and you always shut down and villain has seen you do this, it is probably also wise to just check a lot against this opponent when you actually do have a hand just for balancing.

[dcb777]

I would let the villian go in hand #1 but make a mental note that you think he is taking advantage of you an use this to you advantage later. i would prob get all in on the JJ hand though to take a stand, but would be looking to trap such an opponent with even a better hand in a similar spot.

[SEABEAST]

if they are pushing you around like you say, obviously fourbet both, and obviously snapcall shove both times. not close. the close ones are more like "should i fourbet A2s/ATo/77" when you are really getting bullied, but it is dynamic and shifts depending on game conditions. you dont want to get paranoid with this stuff and turn your game into a -ev SNG, but if people are trying to exploit you AQ and JJ are absolute monsters! especially if you are 30/22, jesus.

[The Velour Fog]

[ QUOTE ]
you dont want to get paranoid with this stuff and turn your game into a -ev SNG,

[/ QUOTE ]

i think that might be spot on ( at least in my case )

[ QUOTE ]
Make it like 110-120 so you can make it easier to fold to a shove and not price yourself in

[/ QUOTE ]

does everyone agree with this? i havent thought much over betsizing of 4 bets before, this makes sense to me though.

[ QUOTE ]
So, just because you have say AQ doesn't mean you should 4bet if you are planning on folding to a shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

now im confused [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] so i shouldnt 4 bet unless im calling a shove? pointing me in the direction of this recent thread would be much apreciated

[DeathDonkey]

No, he was saying if you 4 bet intending to fold to a shove it doesn't matter what your hand was.

-DeathDonkey

[LouisCyphre]

It matters if you get called.

[futuredoc85]

in the first spot w/ AQ i would just call the 3-bet and crai on lots of flops if i thought i was being bullied.