Include bad beat winnings in win rate calculation?

[gobbledygeek]

Stupid question (not sure if this is the right forum) but do you usually include bad beat winnings in win rate calculation?

I was finally at a bad beat table last night and my table share worked out to be 70BB. But my overall winnings in 500+ hours is about the same so this would double my BB/hour. But then again, I donate 10 cents a hand to the bad beat so I'm guessing it makes sense to include.

GcluelessnoobG

[B_Movie_Fan]

I've been wondering this too. I say yes, include it. They drop an extra $1/pot at low limits for it, which is a relatively large percentage of a bet/pot. In your 500+ hours you've probably lost from that extra drop about what you just won when the bad beat hit.

[Xhad]

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But then again, I donate 10 cents a hand to the bad beat so I'm guessing it makes sense to include.

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I count all bonuses in winrate calcs since the only reason I make them is to decide if the game is worth it, especially if it results in extra rake like a BBJ. The only reason I would consider not including such a thing is if it were an absurd longshot and I knew I had hit it far more often than sample size would dictate.

[slavic]

I've been involved in 3 of these, and I've never included them. I would suggest taking 1/4 of the money and throwing it into savings when the 1099 comes at the end of the year. I couldn't convince my accountant in a way the IRS would believe that I should be able to offset the dollar drop in hands I played.

[gobbledygeek]

My reasoning for including it in win rate:

I've played 500 (or so) hours live @ about 25 hands per hour = 12,500 hands. $1 is taken from each pot for the bad beat (actually, I think the pot has to reach $20 before that is done but I could be wrong) so my share of donation has been $12,500 / 10 players (actually average is probably slightly less) = $1,250. Basically that's my money (and they still owe me more!) so I'm going to include it.

[that_pope]

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My reasoning for including it in win rate:

I've played 500 (or so) hours live @ about 25 hands per hour = 12,500 hands. $1 is taken from each pot for the bad beat (actually, I think the pot has to reach $20 before that is done but I could be wrong) so my share of donation has been $12,500 / 10 players (actually average is probably slightly less) = $1,250. Basically that's my money (and they still owe me more!) so I'm going to include it.

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I also include it, along with football/basketball pool promotions, high hand jackpots, and splash pots, because it all comes from the $1 drop per hand.

You almost have the calculation correct, but it should be altered slightly. You really don't contribute that $1 to the BB Jackpot unless you win the pot, so if you are in a really loose game and only drag 2 pots per hour, you are paying less in rake, tips, and jackpot drops than someone else who is winning 10 pots in that same span...

This is another reason why tight is right in low limit games, saving on all the rake by winning less pots...

[fishyak]

Let's ask an underlying question... Why are you keeping score in the first place? Do you keep score to manage your bankroll, manage your tax issues, or is your win rate just a benchmark of your skill level? If you are looking to your win rate to tell you how good your game is (or, as is my case, is not!) I would not include it. I have an extra column in my spreadsheet where I would put found money and extra expenses. I want my BB/hr. or BB/100 score to be "pure poker" and as such, be a better barometer of my game. Otherwise, just one true hit in the JP will make all your #'s meaningless in terms of skill review. I had 3 table shares and 2 20%'s last year which made a significant difference in my numbers. I couldn't tell what was my skill and what was my luck as JP winnings are just straight luck even though I did pay for it on the drop.

[gobbledygeek]

I'm keeping track of my winrate as purely a benchmark of my skill level (and hopefully eventually help in indicating whether I should ever move up a level). I think I will add another column to my spreadsheet and compute two win rates (including vs not including bad beat winnings).

Although I don't think I agree not including the bad beat winnings in your rate reflects your "pure" win rate; after all, if the bad beat drop per hand was something crazy (say %50 or whatever) then your win rate is gonna look horrible even if you're the best player in the world. Hmmm, maybe to get a more accurate barometer you'd have to add the bad beat drop to every hand you win (ex. if you win 15BB in one session with 10 winning hands, you'd actually record a session winning of 15BB + (10 * bad beat drop)). [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Xhad]

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Let's ask an underlying question... Why are you keeping score in the first place? Do you keep score to manage your bankroll, manage your tax issues, or is your win rate just a benchmark of your skill level? If you are looking to your win rate to tell you how good your game is (or, as is my case, is not!) I would not include it.

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This is an excellent point. I mostly use winrate calcs to decide where to play, so I should keep track of this stuff. slavic says you shouldn't include it when keeping track for tax purposes (which makes sense).

gobbledygeek:

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I'm keeping track of my winrate as purely a benchmark of my skill level

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In that case I would not include it. Seems like the number without it will be more meaningful since jackpots add huge variance.

[Octopus]

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I couldn't convince my accountant in a way the IRS would believe that I should be able to offset the dollar drop in hands I played.

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Your accountant is right. The dollar drop is already included in the fact that you won smaller pots (and so have smaller winnings to report and be taxed on).