|
|
#1
05-24-2007, 08:23 AM
|
|||
|
|||
Good turn push?
5/10, 6-handed
Hero(1700) raises to 30 from CO with 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] BB(800) calls (65) Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] BB checks, Hero bets 60, BB raises to 120, Hero calls(305) Turn 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] BB checks, Hero bets 600 I called the flop after his minraise because the BB had shown a willingness to make this same flop minraise with any pair, and I thought I could take it from him if a 'good' card fell on the turn. I figured this bet would get him to fold any decent K and worse, and I was pretty sure my flush draw was good. Also, I had shown a willingness to overbet the pot with made hands. Thoughts? 
|
|
#2
05-24-2007, 09:23 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Good turn push?
I wouldn't try this unless you have some sort of read or history with this guy. It seems pretty spewy because I think you are really over stating the fold equity here. Was this live?
|
|
#3
05-24-2007, 09:40 AM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Good turn push?
[ QUOTE ]
Was this live? [/ QUOTE ] FTP. [ QUOTE ] It seems pretty spewy because I think you are really over stating the fold equity here. [/ QUOTE ] Really? You don't think he should fold a good # of hands here?
|
|
#4
05-24-2007, 02:45 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Good turn push?
Well, I guess no one cares, but here are the results:
Villain tanked, almost timed out, and finally called. Showed K7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] River bricked, and I doubled him up. I still like my play here, as I had shown down a few hands where I made the same kind of overbet, and had it. I don't know how I feel about his call. If he was thinking on like a 3rd level, then I think it was a sick call. FWIW, it 'felt' more like a 'Well, I've got top pair and he bet so much... he can't have it.' sort of thing. Cliff notes: I think I gave villain way too much credit here. Obv. he doesn't pay too much attention to opponents play. I noted that after the hand.
|
|
#5
05-24-2007, 03:39 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Good turn push?
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I guess no one cares, but here are the results: Villain tanked, almost timed out, and finally called. Showed K7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] River bricked, and I doubled him up. I still like my play here, as I had shown down a few hands where I made the same kind of overbet, and had it. I don't know how I feel about his call. If he was thinking on like a 3rd level, then I think it was a sick call. FWIW, it 'felt' more like a 'Well, I've got top pair and he bet so much... he can't have it.' sort of thing. Cliff notes: I think I gave villain way too much credit here. Obv. he doesn't pay too much attention to opponents play. I noted that after the hand. [/ QUOTE ] judging by his flop minraise, and turn check I'm going to assume that villian sucks, and probably doesn't like to fold, and all this 3rd level stuff is completely useless against players like this. I think calling the flop is ok if you say he does this with any pair, but it's beyond me why you just don't check the turn and try to see a cheap showdown.
|
|
#6
05-24-2007, 03:51 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Good turn push?
[ QUOTE ]
judging by his flop minraise, and turn check I'm going to assume that villian sucks, and probably doesn't like to fold, and all this 3rd level stuff is completely useless against players like this. I think calling the flop is ok if you say he does this with any pair, but it's beyond me why you just don't check the turn and try to see a cheap showdown. [/ QUOTE ] Yes, I found out the hard way that he does suck. At the time, however, I thought he was at least good enough to fold tpnk(top of his range here, btw) in that spot. My bad. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
|
|
#7
05-24-2007, 03:53 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Good turn push?
[ QUOTE ]
5/10, 6-handed Hero(1700) raises to 30 from CO with 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] BB(800) calls (65) Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] BB checks, Hero bets 60, BB raises to 120, Hero calls(305) Turn 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] BB checks, Hero bets 600 I called the flop after his minraise because the BB had shown a willingness to make this same flop minraise with any pair, and I thought I could take it from him if a 'good' card fell on the turn. I figured this bet would get him to fold any decent K and worse, and I was pretty sure my flush draw was good. Also, I had shown a willingness to overbet the pot with made hands. Thoughts? [/ QUOTE ] this logic is so backwards...if he does that flop minraise with any pair then why do you want to take it away from him? youre ahead of his range-let him keep bluffing his stack i would imagine he could also do that with a weak king ("for info") or a fd, clearly the fd isnt folding and donkeys (esp short) dont fold top pair because he almost timed out means your spew almost worked but i dont like it i would let turn go check check and i would call a weak river bet or make a thin value bet if checked to but shoving the turn has to be -EV here
|
|
#8
05-24-2007, 03:57 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Good turn push?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] 5/10, 6-handed Hero(1700) raises to 30 from CO with 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] BB(800) calls (65) Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] BB checks, Hero bets 60, BB raises to 120, Hero calls(305) Turn 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] BB checks, Hero bets 600 I called the flop after his minraise because the BB had shown a willingness to make this same flop minraise with any pair, and I thought I could take it from him if a 'good' card fell on the turn. I figured this bet would get him to fold any decent K and worse, and I was pretty sure my flush draw was good. Also, I had shown a willingness to overbet the pot with made hands. Thoughts? [/ QUOTE ] this logic is so backwards...if he does that flop minraise with any pair then why do you want to take it away from him? youre ahead of his range-let him keep bluffing his stack i would imagine he could also do that with a weak king ("for info") or a fd, clearly the fd isnt folding and donkeys (esp short) dont fold top pair because he almost timed out means your spew almost worked but i dont like it i would let turn go check check and i would call a weak river bet or make a thin value bet if checked to but shoving the turn has to be -EV here [/ QUOTE ] Great analysis. Thanks for the response. You don't think it sucks though, to check, have him make a crappy little river bet, then show you K-rag? IDK, I was very confident he didn't have a big hand(set,flush, etc.)and thought I could take him off any marginal holding. Also, I think that if I check turn and he checks to me again on river, he is WAY more likely to call with a crappy K obv.
|
|
#9
05-24-2007, 04:28 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Good turn push?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] 5/10, 6-handed Hero(1700) raises to 30 from CO with 10 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] BB(800) calls (65) Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] BB checks, Hero bets 60, BB raises to 120, Hero calls(305) Turn 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] BB checks, Hero bets 600 I called the flop after his minraise because the BB had shown a willingness to make this same flop minraise with any pair, and I thought I could take it from him if a 'good' card fell on the turn. I figured this bet would get him to fold any decent K and worse, and I was pretty sure my flush draw was good. Also, I had shown a willingness to overbet the pot with made hands. Thoughts? [/ QUOTE ] this logic is so backwards...if he does that flop minraise with any pair then why do you want to take it away from him? youre ahead of his range-let him keep bluffing his stack i would imagine he could also do that with a weak king ("for info") or a fd, clearly the fd isnt folding and donkeys (esp short) dont fold top pair because he almost timed out means your spew almost worked but i dont like it i would let turn go check check and i would call a weak river bet or make a thin value bet if checked to but shoving the turn has to be -EV here [/ QUOTE ] Great analysis. Thanks for the response. You don't think it sucks though, to check, have him make a crappy little river bet, then show you K-rag? IDK, I was very confident he didn't have a big hand(set,flush, etc.)and thought I could take him off any marginal holding. Also, I think that if I check turn and he checks to me again on river, he is WAY more likely to call with a crappy K obv. [/ QUOTE ] hm lets see...i think your missing the point, which is very much contingent upon your read that he would flop min raise with any pair-but, assuming this is true then he has a flush, a set, a king, or one of the other pairs: hes not folding the first two (Flush, Set) he may fold the third (Kings) and he will prolly fold the last-which you dont want him to therefore shoving this turn only allows your opponent to play optimally against you-he calls wiht the hands that are beating you and folds the hands that you are beating (think skalansky/gallfound bucks) now if your read is that he does this check minraise only with top pair, fd, and a set then your line is not that bad and it just comes down to how often he folds his tp relative to the pot/price your laying him-straight forward EV calculation and yeah with that line (turn check bet river) he does call with jsut about any king (the point is not to get him to fold his king its that he calls with other hands also-thin value bets also help your river bluffs because yoru less likely to get looked up by weekhands) but assuming he calls with most other pairs, which i would imagine he does then its plus EV because you beat all the pairs but the king
|
|
#10
05-24-2007, 05:41 PM
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Good turn push?
[ QUOTE ]
hm lets see...i think your missing the point, which is very much contingent upon your read that he would flop min raise with any pair-but, assuming this is true then he has a flush, a set, a king, or one of the other pairs: hes not folding the first two (Flush, Set) he may fold the third (Kings) and he will prolly fold the last-which you dont want him to therefore shoving this turn only allows your opponent to play optimally against you-he calls wiht the hands that are beating you and folds the hands that you are beating (think skalansky/gallfound bucks) now if your read is that he does this check minraise only with top pair, fd, and a set then your line is not that bad and it just comes down to how often he folds his tp relative to the pot/price your laying him-straight forward EV calculation and yeah with that line (turn check bet river) he does call with jsut about any king (the point is not to get him to fold his king its that he calls with other hands also-thin value bets also help your river bluffs because yoru less likely to get looked up by weekhands) but assuming he calls with most other pairs, which i would imagine he does then its plus EV because you beat all the pairs but the king [/ QUOTE ] Light dawns on marble head. I get what you're saying now. Great post, thanks for the help.
|
 |
|
|
Linear Mode
